Lisa Fields: Hello. Welcome to the Jew three Project podcast. I’m your host, Lisa Fields. I’m the founder of the Jew three Project. Well, thank you for watching another episode of the g three project podcast. As always, I’m your host, Lisa Fields, the founder of the g three project. And today, I’m joined by doctor Dan Morrison. Welcome, doctor Morrison.
Dr. Dan Morrison: Thank you for having me. It’s great to be with you today.
Lisa Fields: Great to have you. For, those who don’t know who you are, just tell our audience a little bit about who you are.
Dr. Dan Morrison: K. So, oh, that’s a lot to say in a little amount of time. So I guess I’ll start off with the fact that I am a United States Navy Chaplain, I’m an Anglican priest. So, currently on the East Coast Of The United States, it’s definitely not the same as where I was last stationed in Japan. I still miss it. It was warmer there. But, did my PhD at McMaster Divinity College in Hamilton, Ontario. Actually, I studied under doctor Cynthia Long Westfall, the author of Paul and Gender. And it’s, you know, been a journey of teaching in some settings, working in a couple of churches. So I have educational experience, parish experience, and now working with the military. So it’s been a great ride. Well, thank you for joining us. I was talking to Esau,
Lisa Fields: and I was like, hey. I wanna talk about, angels in the New Testament. Who should I who should I interview? And he recommended you, so I’m glad you accepted the invitation. So really this conversation came about because I was reading through Acts again, and I just started to notice how many times, like, Paul was visited and encouraged by angels. Like and so I was like, this is I’ve never paid that much attention to it. You know, there’s times when God sends encouragement through people, but there are sometimes when God sends encouragement through, angels, and that’s New Testament post Christ. And so I think in in our world today, we kind of don’t even think about angels or we think about some that being restricted to to biblical time. So I just wanted to us to think through that in a in a very critical way and think through it, from the lens of scholarship about the impact of or the, the role of angels in the in the New Testament and in our lives today.
Dr. Dan Morrison: No. That makes a lot of sense. I think starting out, we have to recognize a couple of things. First and foremost, we have this tension within our current post enlightenment framework that we often work in, where what we do is we demythologize scripture itself a lot of times, and we turn everything that’s spiritual into this, you know, attack against the empire. And, you know, there’s some of that that we can see, obviously. Mhmm. But then we also go to the other side of things, where we spiritualize the embodied parts of the gospel in order to, I would dare say, relieve us of some of the responsibility of what it means to follow Jesus. When we begin to look at the New Testament and we see angels, you know, I’m one of these people, I’m like, yeah, I’m very engaged in critical scholarship but I’m also like, you know what, the miraculous does happen. And I don’t see us having a problem with angels or the demonic and, you know, encountering both of these things, the issue is how do we live this out and recognize what’s going on in our contemporary context? And what we begin to see, you know, we find angels showing up in the New Testament fairly early on. And I always say, what they look like, I don’t have a clue. We got all these different, you know, images that people come up with and memes that people are showing, but the fact that they’re like, fear not Mhmm. Makes me go, what did they see? Mhmm. But each time when we find it, a lot of times it’s a message of encouragement, a message of comfort. And, you know, every once in a while, we will see what I like to call a punitive miracle or two. But what we often see is this encouragement, this idea that angels are at work on behalf of God to work with God’s people in what’s going on. I like to say angels are at work with us doing what God is already at work doing within the world. And what we do is we often don’t pay much attention to what, you know, has been called the unseen realm. What we like to do is say, okay, I see this or God’s working through this person. Mhmm. But what about what God is doing behind the scenes that we don’t see? And this is where I think the idea of apocalyptic comes in and what the the pulling back of the veil in order for us to see. And so ultimately, angels are messengers of God who do God’s bidding in order to bring comfort, support, and sometimes, I’ll dare even say steal, to war on behalf of His people. Yeah. Yeah. When you say war, I begin to think of, like, one of my favorite,
Lisa Fields: passages around angels is in Daniel and how he he he prayed, and then the the message comes to him. Like, I was like, I heard you when you pray, but there’s, like, war in the heavens, and the angel had to come and be relieved by another angel to bring you this message. And so it’s like, so much is going on. We when we focus on what we can see, we miss like, there’s so much going on around us that we are not privy to, and we are kind of relegated to our our natural sight without seeing other other the other realities. I think about Elijah and his servant, and his servant is scared. And and then he’s like, god opened his eyes, and then he sees that what’s surrounding him is surrounded by, the angels of God. And so it’s just like, we’re missing so much.
Dr. Dan Morrison: I think we miss so much, and I would dare say we ignore so much. One of the things that we talk about, you know, people you know, my my specialty area is the book of Revelation, and we have these angels of the churches. Mhmm. And, you know, people have gone on, well, it’s the pastor of the church, well, it’s this person, well, it’s this representative, and I’m like, no, y’all, let’s look at this for a minute. You’ve got Jesus in the heavenlies, you have the spirit on earth, you’ve got the physical church on earth, and these angels as the heavenly representation of these assemblies that are gathered in honor of Jesus. So it’s like Christ is having a conversation up here, the Spirit’s having a conversation down here and both are at work. So we see this duality of the heavenlies and we see what’s going on in the earth and how what’s happening in the earth is a reflection of what’s going on in the heavenlies. You look at this situation where Daniel’s concerned that you brought up, and Daniel is here praying and it’s like, wait a minute, we’ve got this whole sort of image of you know, various spirits at work and who’s doing what where. Mhmm. And we seem to be at a loss for that. And I think part of that is we have, as a culture, embraced such a demythologized Christianity Mhmm. Let’s say, that we miss out on the spiritual reality of what’s taking place, but only when it’s convenient for us. Let’s get that straight right now. We we only spiritual we only we we despiritualize when it’s convenient, but then we spiritualize when it’s convenient. And I think that’s where we run into issues because you have angels showing up in the gospel narratives. When Jesus ascends into heaven, angels show up again, angels are at the tomb, angels are comforting and strengthening the apostles and their companions throughout the book of Acts. Mhmm. And then we find these angels showing up again quite a bit in the book of Revelation, once again, to do God’s bidding. And so what we have to do is recognize that the unseen realm, both good and evil, is a reality that we have to actually embrace and say, okay, God, what are you at work doing among us at this time? Yeah.
Lisa Fields: There’s a lot of conversation about the unseen realm. I think, particularly amongst newer believers in the Gen z, the fascination with, spiritual experiences and also the what I what I think sometimes is a overemphasis on the demonic. So it is Oh, can can we go there right quick? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Go ahead. Go for it.
Dr. Dan Morrison: Because because, see, I I mean, I I have seen situations where it’s like there’s a demon under every rock and around every corner, and I’m like, who told you that? But even even if there is, greater is he that is in you than he that is in the world. So what you worried about? Now oh, there’s so many ways we can go with this, but here I think here’s the key thing. When we look at what’s going on with the demonic and the angelic, and we’ve got these principalities and powers and rulers of in high places, what we have to recognize, and Paul talks about this quite a bit. I think Paul uses three primary images and metaphors from the ancient world that tie in with this. He uses the idea of slavery, he uses the concept of, war and conflict, and he uses governance. And in each of these, what Paul does is he highlights the domination of these evil forces over humanity. Mhmm. We were enslaved to to sin. Death and sin were reigning. I mean, we were taken as basically prisoners of war and captives because we were bound by sin in the midst of all of this. This is what made us enemies of God. Mhmm. But then Paul does this beautiful thing where he delegitimizes the efficacy and domination of these powers because he does this. Well, at one time, you were like this. Mhmm. But now, this is where you are. Mhmm. And he walks us through and he lays his foundation where he’s like, you know what? Here’s what happened. You were redeemed from slavery and and he uses this economic language of the marketplace where it’s like, you were redeemed. And he I think it’s in yeah, in Galatians, he turns around and he actually refers to the elemental spirits and he goes, why would you wanna go back to these weak and poor elemental spirits? The spirits can’t even buy you back, you’re willing to go back into slavery with them, so let’s not do that. Mhmm. Then he takes this language of war and it’s like, no, you know what? Christ came and God in Christ disarmed and stripped all of these powers and rulers that were holding you captive and and over and overcoming you through warlike means, and it’s like, no, we’re not about that life. And then we see in Colossians that God has taken us from the domain of darkness and transferred us into the kingdom of his son. And so we’ve got this whole thing where we are no longer under the powers of the enemy. We are no longer subject to the schemes and wiles of the devil. So then why do we have this over concern with all of these things? Because here’s the here’s the real issue, and here’s where I think the reality needs to come into play for us and we recognize it, but also recognize that we don’t have to walk in fear of this. The ruler of the power of the air is still at work in the sons of disobedience. Sin and death and the elemental spirits are still exercising power over those who are not in Christ. But we see time and time again, through union with Christ in his death, in his resurrection, in his exaltation, we are not subject to these evil entities. But now that doesn’t mean that we are all, like, out here doing our own thing, because we’re still slaves of God, we’re still turning around as citizens of the kingdom, and now we are called to oppose and stand firm against these things that once took us captive as prisoners of war. And as a result of that, we have to recognize that it’s not just us in this battle. Mhmm. You know, Ephesians says that the struggle is not against blood and flesh. And if that’s the case, they’re angelic hosts who were at work in the midst of this. And I think when you when you mentioned the the whole Old Testament Hebrew Bible framework of God open his eyes that he might see, and all of a sudden he’s able to see that those who were with them far outnumbered their opponents. That’s the part that we have to embrace as the people of God. Yeah.
Lisa Fields: Yeah. And I think so much of our fascination with the demonic is us trying to make sense of the pain in our lives. That if we can if there’s some if if there’s some suffering that I experience, maybe there’s some something that I’m attached to that I need to denounce or renounce. Now that doesn’t mean, that you haven’t opened yourself up to places or let anger take a foothold in you or some or not acting out in accordance with the righteous the life God has called you to and invited things in your life. But there but there’s also times where it’s just you’re just struggling because that’s life. Like and so I think there’s not, like, clear delineation in, like, the what’s the cause of this particular thing? And we’re always looking for a formula.
Dr. Dan Morrison: Yeah. And and here’s the key key thing. There isn’t a formula. Well, or or sometimes there might be, because I I’ve actually told somebody this one day. I said, you know what? This ain’t a demon. You did this, and these are the consequences of your action. And so and and I’m like and I say, because if you wanna say it was a demon, then my question is, were you possessed? And they’re like, well, no. I’m like, then you did this. And I think there there are some times where we run into situations where it’s like, okay, what is going on? And that’s why I think discernment and prayer come into play. That’s where seeking godly counsel, the community of faith that you are in, no matter what that community is, let’s let’s seek this out, let’s pray together, let’s discern together, and let’s see. Because sometimes, I have seen some stuff, there have been moments and times where I’m like, oh, this could, yeah, this sounds like there’s some spiritual stuff going on. At other times, it’s, no, you did this. Now let’s see what we can get get done to fix it. And other times, we have to acknowledge, we still live in a fallen world and things happen. Mhmm. And, you know, nature takes its course. It’s it’s sort of like somebody said, oh, like, they sneezed. And it was like, oh, this this this this cold demon. I’m like, bro, you sneezed. God enabled you to sneeze so germs would not get in. Maybe that’s what’s going on. And it was like, oh, no. It’s gotta be a demon. I’m like, alright, bro. I can’t help you.
Lisa Fields: Yeah. I think the fascination is like I love how John Thompson talks about it. He, has, like, this book on deliverance in in in other books. But he talks about, like, the demonic intensifies things, but it doesn’t always, like, just when if you if the demon is cast out, it cast it makes it manageable. It but you still have to fight with it. And I think that, to me, brings a level of sobriety to even the struggle. Like, okay. If this is a I do believe, like you said, demons are at play in the lives of some people’s lives and they, you know, they need prayer, spiritual warfare, but that doesn’t mean that once you do that, they’re not gonna wrestle with certain things. It’s just the intensity of their ability to manage might might, minimize.
Dr. Dan Morrison: Right. And I I think that’s that’s a beautiful picture of it because, you know, the demonic can exacerbate some of the things that we got going on in our lives. But it’s like, okay, now, let’s look at this. You got an addiction. Let’s deal with your addiction now. Because okay. No no demons involved. Let’s deal with the addiction. Okay? Other times, we need some prayer. We need some fasting. Let’s get this. Okay. Now let’s manage your side of this. Yeah. Let’s get you some therapy
Lisa Fields: to deal with the trauma.
Dr. Dan Morrison: And that’s the stuff that we but see, we just wanna pray we wanna and I think this is part of it. Part of the overemphasis on the demonic and sometimes even on the angelic is that we don’t want to take human responsibility for our part of things. We don’t wanna turn around and say, oh, you know what? I need to be at work in what God is doing to do this thing that God is calling his people to do because, you know, oh, an angel take care of it. But then it becomes, I don’t want to take responsibility for my shortcomings and I’m a say my sin even at times because, oh, it’s all the devil. I told somebody one day because they were like, oh, the devil made me do it. I said, you know what? Next to God, the devil gets lied on more than any being in all of creation. And they’re like, what you mean? I’m like, the devil the devil is busy, yes, but the devil cannot do this, this, this, this, and this all at the same time. So I’m like, let let’s be careful with this. We got many angels, thank God, who are at work in culture, in society, in the world, working on our behalf and protecting us from dangers sometimes seen and other times unseen. And I think that’s where we need to sometimes bring the focus back. And I think a lot of times though, we don’t let’s let’s be honest. Movies. Demons sell movies. Angels don’t. Like, you know, back in the day, what was that old Tobin show, Touched by an Angel? Like that was about the only thing. And it had some, you know, okay, we had some good angels, we got some bad angels, we got some demons over here. Okay, but that was about it. But otherwise, when you think about it, culturally, the media is able to draw people in with stories related to the demonic. And I think maybe that’s part of the reason why there’s such a draw within this upcoming generation about individuals who are encountering the demonic is because they’re playing into exactly what the media is presenting to them. Yeah.
Lisa Fields: I I, as as you were talking, I begin to think about a part of the first sin was blaming it on the devil. So there was a order of blame. Adam, it was the woman you gave me. Eve, it was the serpent. So if we we see everybody in theological discourse doesn’t see the serpent as a as a as a demon, but his historically, most Christians have understood the serpent to be the devil. So what I love about how God handles it, it’s like he does not remove responsibility from Eve, but he does he does validate that the the enemy plays a role by punishing the the the serpent as well. And so I think that is the divine balance of, like, yes, you can blame the enemy, but God will still hold you responsible for your actions even if you were influenced by the enemy.
Dr. Dan Morrison: Right. I I think that’s I think that’s a key thing in that Genesis narrative is because we have in some ways, it’s almost like, I feel like Adam deflects to Eve, but Eve takes responsibility, but she says, the serpent deceived me, and I’m like, oh, that plays a major role in this, because if the serpent has deceived, and and we see Paul pick up on that and, his writing in first Timothy, Adam wasn’t deceived. So it’s got this whole framework of, okay, he willfully went along with the devil in all of this, she is deceived and falls into the same trap. And I and I I sometimes wonder, is that the reason why we have how Paul lays out the responsibility for sin, especially in Romans, he’s like, oh, yeah. That one person’s sin, like, sin and death came into the world. The devil has some responsibility and some role, but the human responsibility is there every single time. Mhmm.
Lisa Fields: As we think about because there’s a lot of con one of the reason I wanna have this conversation around angels and fallen angels is the the aspect that’s in in pervasive the conversations, particularly in African American culture where around denouncing, fraternities and sororities. So that’s one of the reasons why I think this conversation is really relevant to what’s happening today. Where do we see in in when we talk about angels and demons in the the New Testament, and we could bring Old Testament, how how do people unloose themselves from shackles? Because I don’t know if there’s, like I’m trying to figure out the renouncing language seems and maybe renouncing is repentance. They’ve just swapped out the language. But I see people re being repented. I see apostles casting out demons, but it’s not like I don’t see language of I I renounce this false idol, and then I’m okay with God. Like, I don’t see that language in the New Testament. You’re the New Testament scholar here. Correct.
Dr. Dan Morrison: I’m a tell you. You I don’t think you’re gonna see that because here’s what we do see. Where is it? It’s in the book of acts, around chapter eight, where Philip goes to Samaria, and you’ve got all of these people, and they’re repentant, and they got all their magical stuff and their books and their and and people start burning stuff. It’s like, okay. I’m not gonna go back to that. Almost in the same way when you have the Elijah Elijah framework, and it’s like, okay. Throwing my cloak on you. Okay. You gonna take your plow, burn it up. I’m not going back to it. But this whole idea of declarations of renouncing stuff, now, you know, you you can find within Christian traditions, some of them, this idea of renouncing, you know, the devil and all his works, things like that, and baptismal rights, but beyond that, you got people who are like, well, I’m renouncing this fraternity, I’m renouncing this. I’m like, you got anything left by the time you finish all your renunciations? But for some people, I think it’s more of a psychological approach that is wrapped in religious language. Mhmm. Does that make sense? Mhmm. Where you where you’ve got people say, okay, I’m gonna renounce this. I’m gonna separate myself from it. And I think sometimes it’s not a necessary renunciation that’s taking place, but to justify it, especially when I mean, let let’s just be upfront. You got some tight knit communities amongst, like, the Greek world, especially amongst African Americans. You got when you got black Americans who have come through the ranks, you’ve got fraternities, you’ve got sororities, and now it’s a brotherhood, it’s a sisterhood, and all of a sudden you’re like, I’m cutting ties with you. When I put religious language on things, it relieves me of some of my responsibility to justify you why I’m breaking relationship with you. And so if I just say, oh well, you know, I mean, and we do this with a lot of things. When you stop and think about it, how often do we use religious language as a trump card? Well, God told me. How am I supposed to respond to you saying God told me? I’ll give you a prime example of that. First time I was in a church, I had somebody who was leaving the church and, you know, I came in, okay, different pastor, whatever. And they came to me and they say, well, God told me I’m supposed to go someplace else. All right. I prayed, God sent them out, showed them where they need to be. We were good. Bless them as they go. They became upset because I didn’t try to fight and argue with them on staying with our community. And I stopped and said, wait a minute. You just said God told you to go. Who am I as a servant of God to try to convince you to disobey God? What kind of pastor am I if I’m trying to convince you to disobey God? And at that point, I think they were actually ready to stay if I had tried to argue with them to get them to stay, but because I just so freely was like, okay, like, let let me pray for you and send you on your way. They were like, well, now I put it, I I put the I pulled the God card, so now I guess I got to go. And I think in some ways, when people do these renunciations, it’s really a way of being able to say, okay, I owe you no explanation because I’m doing this because of God.
Lisa Fields: Mhmm. Yeah. And I I think, you know, with the the, like, God language or the use of it in ways that are are unhelpful, that doesn’t allow for you to take responsibility for your actions, or your or you use it because you are you don’t know how to have difficult conversations. So you use god as an escape so you can avoid conversation. So you can say god told me, and that’s the card that you play. It creates it creates, challenges in relationship. I I I the older I get, I’m I’m beginning to see that our our spiritual maturity is really most shown in how we handle people who mishandled mishandled us, how we navigate our enemies, how we deal with, you know, sin in our lives, like those things and how we love other people well. Like, if if your focus or hyperfocus on demons doesn’t, like, transform you in those ways, but it makes you hostile and critical to people online, you may not be growing in maturity. You may be growing in something else.
Dr. Dan Morrison: Right. And I I think that that’s what we do is how do I how do I say this tactfully? This is where, when I mentioned earlier, we will sometimes spiritualize embodied aspects of the gospel. This is where this plays out because, you know, you got the people who are like, oh, yeah. Angels this and angels that, and I’m like, okay. You having all these great encounters with angels. My question to you is, how is this making you more like Jesus? And then on the opposite side of that, well, if you got a demon around every corner, I’m sure you stay and pray it up at all times in order to make sure that you don’t succumb to the powers of these enemies. And not only that, but that means that you’re showing the love of Jesus to everybody around you because you in such relationship with him, because you you spending time avoiding all of these things. And more often than not, I think that what we can do is say, yes, angels are mentioned in the Bible. We have these encounters. We know the reality of the spiritual realm, but then we have to ask ourselves, does my fascination with this bring me closer to Jesus? Does it make me more like him? Does it bring me into the community of faith in a way that I’m cultivating the relationships that I need in order to grow in him. Because here’s what we find, more often than not, especially after the resurrection, angel yeah. Angelic encounters thy people often occur when people are isolated and alone. They’re in prison. They we got this issue going on. Okay. We got to figure this out. Like, think about it. Like, when when Peter’s in prison and an angel shows up, well, well, okay. James got killed off, so now he here by himself, basically, within the apostolic band, and now all of a sudden, angel shows up. Oh, okay. We got this going on. So then you you find again another angelic encounter, and you’re alone. You are isolated from the community. So I think on one level, a physical a physically manifested encounter with an angel almost seems to be a response to your isolation from the community as a spiritual point of connection that’s manifested in this world
Lisa Fields: at that particular time. Does that make sense? Like you like, god uses people to encourage one another. But if you’re in an instance where you have nobody to encourage you, god is like, I’m not gonna leave you without encouragement. So he himself will encourage you or he will send the angelic being too.
Dr. Dan Morrison: Right. And I I think that that that sort of brings it into perspective because what I often find, especially when people begin to talk about the angels, like, not not bad angels, but just the good ones, is that individuals will begin to focus on their isolation from the body, but it’s not, It’s a self imposed isolation from the community of faith. It’s not due to, you know, turmoil or persecution or anything of that nature or you know what, you know, I’m isolated and I’m sick and I can’t be around people. Like, that’s not what we’re talking about. It’s people who choose to separate themselves and turn it into, as the old school saying, it’s me and Jesus got a good thing going. And I’m like, no, no, no, it’s you and Jesus in the context of the community of faith. But when you can’t be part of that community due to some kind of extreme circumstance, that’s usually when I see stories of angels stepping in, be that in the biblical context, in the early church context, or even in a contemporary context, is usually at these points of I’m alone, I’m isolated, I’m in a desperate situation, and I am in dire need of some kind of encouragement. And guess what? At that point, the angel is the closest thing you got to Jesus with some skin on. It’s like, well, you ain’t got no skin, but whatever that stuff is, let’s go. You know? And I think that’s where it comes in for us to be like, oh, okay. This is this is what makes sense. Here’s where we run into issues in the Western world of. We eliminate the idea of angels. We eliminate the idea of demons. But when we look at the majority world context, we look at Africa. There is an understanding that the spiritual realm is real. Mhmm. And I’ve heard people in the West turn around and say, well, you know what? That’s just African spirituality. That’s just like, I’ve even heard people say, well, that’s just a black American thing because y’all, you like had ancestors from Africa, like all of this. And I was like, no, let’s look at it this way. Why would there be demonic manifestations in a realm where you don’t really believe in the devil anyway? So maybe the devil’s just playing to your apathy and not showing himself because he’s already got you. People wanna step back from that for a minute. They’re like, what do you mean by that? I say, no. Think about it for a minute. If you live in a culture that has already eliminated from its under understanding of the world, angels and demons, God and the demonic in every way possible, why would the devil manifest himself and show that he’s actually real? I think that’s where we have to remember that some of these forms of skepticism come from a world view that is totally detached, especially in this day and age, from the reality of the truths of the Bible. Mhmm. This is where we have to say, okay. Wait a minute. Angelic hosts. Well, let me tell you something. Angels are real and in the event that you don’t believe in an angel, that doesn’t mean that angels don’t exist. And I think that’s the thing that people sort of so I heard somebody one day put it like, well, it’s sorta like Santa Claus. Like, if you have enough people who believe in Santa Claus, Santa exists. I’m like, well, this ain’t no movie like that. Like, what what you talking about? Like, we talking about the God of scripture. We’re talking about angelic hosts who serve on his behalf. We’re talking about demonic forces that have dominated people Mhmm. Who are not in the kingdom of God. And as a result, what we have to do is say, what does scripture teach and how do I embrace what the Bible
Lisa Fields: actually says? Yeah. I love that you talk about separation being a a reason that angels appear, because there are so many people that I know that are in have isolated themselves. We live in one of the most loneliest generations in human history, and a lot of the isolation is, like you said, self imposed out of fear of people. So the fear of people, the fear of hurt from people leads people into self isolation usually. Self isolation is where people are often tormented, and that torment sometimes come from the fallen angels, the the demonic. Yeah. Yeah. And that torment in the isolation creates further
Dr. Dan Morrison: isolation.
Lisa Fields: And I I real I was talking to someone, and I was praying for someone in, the self isolation. And they were saying that you need to pray for God to send his ministering angels to this person in isolation to war against the the the demons that may be in their space. And so it’s very interesting how we we, we talk about, like, the impact of isolation and the need for ministering angels to visit people who are who who refuse to be encouraged by people because they have such deep fear and trauma. So I I love that that, delineation.
Dr. Dan Morrison: And I I think in the midst of that, what we we as people have to do is we have to say, you know what? We recognize where you’re coming from. We’re gonna try to meet you where you are. Mhmm. But let’s start off slowly and see where some healing can come to your life that you can do this because what if we’re not careful, what we end up doing is we embrace the trauma as part of who we are. Mhmm. And we then leave out the people who God wants to use to bring about the healing. And as as I was thinking about it, I was like, even in, like, outside of the shepherds, in the in the nativity, narrative, you don’t really find angels appear in the groups of people most of the time. Mhmm. It’s like, oh, okay. Jacob, like, oh oh, he out here by himself, and now he he wrestling with God. You got Joshua is like, the angel of the Lord shows up, are you for us or against us? Well, I’m on the Lord’s side. Like, let let’s get this straight right now. Each time you’ve got this almost this period of loneliness, even in the gospels when Jesus is tempted of the devil. I think it’s the marking account that says, and angels came and ministered to him. But he was also alone. He was alone. And that and that’s the key thing. It’s like, wait a minute. It’s this isolation. I think that’s where God just so beautifully reinforces what we find as early as Genesis. It’s not good for us to be alone. Mhmm. And if you know what? If if you’re in this bad situation, not because of your own doing, but because of something else that’s going on, okay. Hey. Let let me send you let me send you an angel to minister to you because you don’t have another person to minister to you. Mhmm.
Lisa Fields: But he is and and I love that point also too because it makes me think of something else. Like, the the ministry of the angels is to get you back to the community. I think about when when, Peter is free, out of jail, he goes right back to the community. So the angels help him, but it equips him to go back to community. So it is a jump start to get you if you’re in the depleted state, it is a jumper. It’s a jump like, you have to jump your battery to get you back on a row. It’s not to keep you. It’s not for you to just be like, I’m just in a relationship with angels. And then it also makes me think about the another way in which you guy uses angels. The whole is Hebrews that we’re attaining we may be entertaining angels unaware. So it’s like he uses it as an encouragement, but also maybe as a as a as a test, to gauge, our our ability to be kind and loving to people that are not who we may want to encounter, but both of these are are training. One is fueling us to go back to community, and then the other is, like, helping us to do community better. Like, so they’re both communal tools.
Dr. Dan Morrison: It’s all about community. And I think that that’s the beauty of it. It’s, like, to be in the body of Christ is to be in community. Okay. Wait a minute. You’re separated from the body of Christ because of some situation. God sends angelic hosts to minister to you, to bring you back to the community. Other times it’s like, oh, I don’t know if I want that person in my community. Maybe God has sent an angel to you in the form of a person that you wouldn’t think you would want to be in community with in order for you to have the opportunity to actually exhibit Christ likeness to those who you wouldn’t normally think about being in community with. Yeah. It’s all about community.
Lisa Fields: Yes. Yes. I think that’s rich. I I didn’t expect our conversational angels to end in a conversational community, but I think it’s it’s beautiful how God does it. Because I’ve been I’ve been, like, fascinated by just the ways in which community is, like, throughout scripture and how much God cares. Like, you see it everywhere. I was thinking about Job, and many people miss like, Job isn’t restored till he intercedes for his friends. The same friends who got it wrong about him. And so, like, we forget that. Like, we’re, like, so folk hyper focused on, like, God gave Job double for his trouble. And it’s like, but Job didn’t get that until he interceded for the for the very people who got it wrong about him. And God not only restores, though, the the his fortune, but God restores his relationship with the very people who got it wrong about him. Like, God was concerned about him and his friends still being in community together even when they mishandled his difficult time. And I like that. You see, like, Joseph and the fact that Joseph goes through all of that to save the very people who put him in there. Like, he’s called to be salve the be the salvific figure, not just for himself, but for the brothers, that put him in the in the pit. So it’s just like all of that we miss, which points us to Jesus who intercedes when he’s suffering on the cross, who saves the very people that put him on there. So it’s like God is pushing us to community with the very people that are difficult to navigate. And that doesn’t, you know, that doesn’t say we don’t challenge our abusers. We don’t, you know, hold them accountable. But sometimes when we hear that, we go to the worst case scenario. But what about the people you just don’t like because they’re hard to deal with? And I’m not talking about abuse. Like, I’m not talking about extreme situations because I feel like we always have to yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I I love that how God is, like, pushing community and all these things. Also, one of the things I wanted to talk to you about, because I really didn’t know before the today that your expertise is revelation. And so I can’t let you go without talking about end times because a lot of what we’re experiencing today, in America particularly, people always point to end times. But I’m like, y’all, people been going through harder stuff in other countries way before us. People are go like, for hundreds and hundreds of years without a break. So it’s very American center to say when it’s difficult for here, that’s when the world is ending. So I’m not saying that we’re not in the end times. I don’t know when Jesus is coming back. So I’m not saying that. I don’t wanna dismiss that. But I do think there’s a overemphasis in ways that centers America in Revelation, then Revelation may not actually be communicating. So I would love give you the opportunity to speak to that.
Dr. Dan Morrison: So I I used to make a joke that, you know, The USA is the center of, revelation because USA are the central letters in Jerusalem. What we have to recognize is that we have been in the end times as far back as Acts two, where Peter says, this is that, which was spoken by the prophet Joel, that in the last days, I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh. So, okay, the last day started way back when. Let’s get that I think that’s the key part right there. So then what’s been going on? The church has been enduring persecution and growth throughout history. And all of a sudden, we begin to say, okay, wait a minute. It’s bad for me, so now now it’s the end of the world. No. No. No. No. No. We gotta look at all these other people. But what we do is we make the Bible Us centric. Mhmm. We don’t think about we go and I think part of it goes back to the the individualism and lack of community that we know as Westerners, like, especially within the majority culture Mhmm. Of The US, it’s all about individualism, pulling yourself up by your bootstraps, doing all of these other things. And so now it’s about me, and it’s my salvation, my relationship with Jesus without the communal aspect. And so as a country and as a as a, I would say, a US, culture, as a Western European culture, you find that a lot even amongst Christians. When bad things when things are going bad for us, now it’s the end. But in actuality, I always tell people, when we read from Genesis to Jude, we normally say, hey. Basic exegesis and hermeneutics, what did it reasonably mean to the original audience? How do we apply that to our lives today? We get to the book of Revelation and everything we learn about interpreting the Bible is tossed out the window because now we got Apache helicopters flying around, we got all this stuff and it was written for me in this moment in time right now. And I’m like, wait, wait, wait. How would those in the seven churches have understood what was going on and what John was talking about? And so I tell people this at the outset. When I did my doctoral dissertation, I said, oh, wait. Here’s a great way to summarize it all up. If you don’t understand, I would say three major things, you run into trouble. One, Jesus is King. That’s issue number one. Issue number two, John is confronting the churches regarding how they are supposed to live number three, everything from chapter four all the way to chapter 22 is an apocalyptic expansion and a warning of, hey, this is what’s gonna happen to you if you disobey. And this is what will happen for you if you do obey. It’s the same as the rehearsals of the covenant by the prophets in the Hebrew Bible. Hey, think about it. This is the present situation. They refer back to the blessings and curses of the covenant from the Torah, and then they would make application to their contemporary context. That is what John does. He didn’t talk about the end times really in Revelation until you get to about chapter 19 where Jesus is coming back as the rider on the white horse and the resurrection of the dead. That’s when you really get to end time stuff. All the funky stuff that people like, it’s a sign of the times. What you end up with is wait. I’m a just hit it. Revelation 13, the beasts of Revelation, both of them. You’ve got imperial leadership, you’ve got religious leadership coming together in order to bring about people not only worshiping the the emperor, not only becoming religiously involved in the empire, oh wait, we see this today, where people actually use religion to connect it with a political movement. And and as a result, that’s how we should make application of what’s going on in Revelation. It is not about the end of the world as we know it, at least not in the way that we think. It’s more so about where does your allegiance lie. I I love the whole thing where people talk about the mark of the beast in Revelation 13, and I’m like, okay. Message to the church in Laodicea, where people are saying, I’m rich, I’ve prospered, I don’t have need of anything. And Jesus compels them saying, you know what? You don’t realize. You you’re you’re wretched and pitiable. You’re actually poor, you’re blind, and you’re naked. And the very thing that they are building themselves up on their wealth, he says, so I want you to buy from me gold refined by fire. I want you to buy from me say I have to anoint your eyes that you might see. I want you to buy from me garments that you might cover yourself and your nakedness may not be seen. What he’s doing is he’s using the language of the very thing they’re building themselves up on because how am I gonna buy gold from Jesus? It’s repentance. Because then when you jump over here and you can neither buy nor sell without the mark of the beast, if I’m in the church in Laodicea and I’ve been confronted with my self dependence and my dependence upon my economic power and authority, now I have to say, am I willing to gain all the money in the world and lose my soul, or am I going to be faithful to the one who called me? That’s where all of the messages to the churches play out in Revelation in that way. And so it’s really about practical application in an embodied framework of, I would dare say, like in Ephesus, not being a jerk for Jesus, where I’m a stand up for Jesus, but in a way that actually does not reflect the love that he commanded I have for those around me. I can’t I can’t confess Jesus, defend him, but then do it in a way that actually opposes his way. Mhmm. Which leads us to That’s just a little taste of revelation. Yeah. Which leads us to first Peter three fifteen.
Lisa Fields: Do give a defense with gentleness and respect. And if it’s not done in gentleness and respect, it’s not apologetics as God intended. Yeah. Yeah. Well, this has been a rich conversation. So many good nuggets. For those who want to go deeper in understanding angels, and demons, what books or any resources would you recommend?
Dr. Dan Morrison: Oh, I always say, well, start off with with scripture because that’s gonna be the first thing. A lot of people have, really embraced the work of the late doctor Michael Heizer on the unseen realm. Mhmm. I think it is a great resource. One of the things I will say as a caveat for this is Heizer definitely recommends or he appeals a lot to second temple Jewish writings. Mhmm. And as I read his work, I have to take it with a grain of salt because it’s almost as if he is taking these extra biblical writings as authoritative. Mhmm. And so, you know, as you read, you have to make sure, okay, is he is he citing scripture or is he citing something that’s from outside of scripture? And so that would be my one caveat, but he has great writings on the topic. I think he does marvelously, a marvelous job of actually explaining, hey, here’s what people thought in the ancient world, but it doesn’t necessarily reflect the biblical truth of everything that’s coming forth. I think another book that I would definitely recommend, and it sort of comes from the other side of things, is Clint Arnold’s, The Powers in Ephesians. Hold on one second. Oh, wait. Actually, I was using this for something. Yeah. Ephesians power and oh, sorry. That was a trap title. Ephesians power and magic. The concept of power in Ephesians in light of its historical settings. That book actually deals a lot with principalities, power, so from the opposite side of things. And so I think when you put those two sets of writings together, it gives you some good perspective. Arnold, I think, does a much better job, especially because he’s focused in scripture to actually say, here’s where things come out and here’s where they come into play. And he actually, I think, does a wonderful job of explaining, especially for those who have an overemphasis on the demonic, how we have been seated with Christ in heavenly places. And therefore we don’t need to spend our time concerning ourselves so much with, you know, a demon under every rock or around every corner.
Lisa Fields: Mhmm. No, that’s helpful. How can people get in contact with you on social media?
Dr. Dan Morrison: So on social media, I am on threads, formerly known as no. No. Threads is good. X, formerly known as Twitter, and Instagram as doc danmo. So d o c d a n m o. And I also have a Facebook page, which is Daniel I Morrison.
Lisa Fields: Well, thank you, doctor Morrison. This has been a rich conversation. Definitely connect with him on social. I’m glad Esau recommended you for this conversation. It was rich. For those who don’t know, I have a book coming out, When Heroes Fall. So you could preorder that. It comes out June 16, 2026. So in a few months, that’ll be out. You could preorder now. Also, when faith disappoints, it’s available. All of our past episodes and resources are at jude3project.org. You can become a monthly donor or one time giver. We cannot do this work without you, and we need your support to continue to do this work well. So consider being a monthly partner or a one time giver at ju3project.org. In that donate tab, we have our 2025 impact report, available for those who wanna know what we did last year. We did so much. We reached so many people, because of your generosity. And so we thank you. We were able to do all of that because of your generosity. And so we thank you for that. Until next time, grace and peace, and God bless.