Lisa Fields: Hello. Welcome to the Jew three Project podcast. I’m your host, Lisa Fields. I’m the founder of the Jew three Project. Well, thank you for watching another episode of the g three project podcast. As always, I’m your host, Lisa Fields, the founder of the g three project. And today, we are continuing our series on my book, When Heroes Fall, available now where all books are sold. And today, we have a very special guest, Brenda Palmer. Welcome, Brenda. Thank you for having me. I’m excited to have this conversation. Yes. Tell our audience before we get started a little bit about who you are. Yes. So I am a preacher, a podcaster,
Brenda Palmer: and a producer and an author now. And, yeah, born and raised in Chicago. I live in Dallas now. And I don’t know. I’ll just always say, like, I’m just a girl who told God yes and ended up here. I used to be a television producer, worked in digital production, and then, I don’t know, into that career taking off, the Lord was like, actually, let’s move over here and do this thing. I started serving at a church behind the scenes, a leading worship production and comms department. And one day my pastor was like, what do you think about preaching? I was like, I don’t. He was like, I think we should try it out. And I preached one sermon and I think I realized that that was a gifting and a calling for that season of my life. And ever since then, just what I’ve been doing full time. That’s awesome. Well, I’m I’m excited to have you on the podcast to talk about,
Lisa Fields: when heroes fall. Mhmm. Really, because I know you have a pulse on engaging the next generation. Right? You, you have really connected, with with this generation. What do you think why do you think this topic is important for for the generation we see now? Yeah. I think that
Brenda Palmer: unlike when we were growing up, I think that when we see moral failures or any type of failure, within our leadership in our churches, it’s so public. Mhmm. And right now, it’s so prevalent. And I think the next generation doesn’t have language. They can’t reconcile a person who’s supposed to be leading me from the platform, making a mistake, maybe not taking accountability or responsibility. And I think this conversation helps them navigate that. Right? I think for me, it’s really huge to teach the next generation the difference between, listening to a leader or having a covering, but that not limiting my access to the Lord or, it hindering or affecting my relationship with the Lord. And I think we need to make more space for, okay, I was going to this church. I really honor this leader and they fail. What do I do next? Mhmm. And what does that mean for my relationship with God when the person who is representing them has done the opposite of what they’ve taught me? Mhmm.
Lisa Fields: Have you ever experienced it yourself where you had a leader that you you admired that failed? For sure. A 100%.
Brenda Palmer: I I was thinking about this question today. I think, a huge part of my testimony is I was serving on staff at a church and found out that my boyfriend was in an inappropriate relationship with my pastor. And it wasn’t just my pastor, he was my spiritual father. I had keys to their house, I traveled with them, I had a room in their house. I took care of their children. So very, very intimate relationship with them. And honestly, it was devastating. Like, I was leading young adults, so I was aware of this happening and trying to lead and also navigate how to process what I was experiencing or what had been exposed to me. And so and I didn’t have language. I don’t even know who to tell or who to talk to. And so I do think, yeah, it was really hard. But what I think kept me in that season is I knew the difference between the character of God and the character of someone who made a mistake. Mhmm. And it was it helped me be able to not walk away from God but cling to him in a season where I didn’t know what else to do. Mhmm.
Lisa Fields: When when that moment happened for you, did you feel like you had you you already said you didn’t feel like you had people to tell, but what what, I guess, the better question was, what would you hope had been in place for you to process that? I think,
Brenda Palmer: I was attending a nondenominational church. Mhmm. So I think, like, there oftentimes are not structures of accountability. Mhmm. So if if my pastor does something or I become aware that my leader or if my leader’s done something to me, it’s like who do I go to? We had a board of elders. My parents were on the board and so were his parents. So just like imagine the level of accountability. And so I think I would’ve loved for there to have been a place where I could have processed with someone and said, Hey, this is what’s happening. And not felt like someone would retaliate towards me. And that didn’t happen, but it was just kinda like I just didn’t know. I think, and I’ve never dealt with anything like that, I don’t think. So I just, I don’t know. I don’t know what the protocol would have been or should have been in that situation, so I internalized a lot of it Mhmm. Until I just had a say because I I was going to work every day, and I was like, I can’t I can’t do this no more. Mhmm. But until then, I think a system of accountability, I think, would have been helpful. Yeah. Yeah. I think so many times in these things that happen,
Lisa Fields: accountability doesn’t happen because a person is so successful.
Brenda Palmer: Mhmm.
Lisa Fields: And, when when people come forward, the the some things kinda get pushed under the rug because of how successful they are. For sure. And people are like, well, you are reaching thousands of people. You hurt one. So it’s kinda like Mhmm. And they forget, like, god will leave the 99 for the one. Yeah. So that’s the kind of disposition we ought to have for the one. Mhmm. How do you see that playing out? Yeah. I think
Brenda Palmer: I think two things. I think because accountability lacks, I think sometimes the people who should be holding people accountable can’t because they too have also fallen. Mhmm. And so I think there’s, like, that structure. I think the other thing is if I pull myself out of situations, like how do we know what’s true and how do we know what’s not? I I very well could have proven it and I did. But I think that we run the risk of that too. Right? Like how do we decipher someone just being angry and making up things versus some an actual lived experience? And I think I do think someone’s impact sometimes overrides their responsibility as a leader. It’s like, well, you repented so it’s okay. And it’s like well what does that actually look like? And yes this time only one person was hurt. But what happens if this behavior continues? And how does it affect the overall church, because there is a leader who’s ministering from a fallen place? Because I also recognize that certain, theology started to shift because there was sin happening. So where there’s like, well we don’t gotta repent.’ You know like there’s all these random things happening and I’m like, it doesn’t just affect one person. You start it I mean, like, when you are unrepentant, everything starts to change. Your lens starts to change too. Right? So now you’re indoctrinating people
Lisa Fields: based off your bad behavior and bad decisions. Mhmm. Yeah. Because you’re trying to cover to justify in your mind. And lay the foundation for the, if this does come out, I already said. Right? I already created the I’ve created the cushion for myself Yes. Because I had to change the way because I need to preemptively Mhmm. Shift people’s minds. Yeah. Because if this does come out, I’m already good based on the parameters I’ve given you. Yep. Yeah. And I think that that’s important to even recognize. Like, when we look for signals Yeah. Like, I I was talking, to reverend doctor Breonna Parker about, like, sometimes people breadcrumb you. Mhmm. Like, they’re actually telling you things without telling you things. 100%.
Brenda Palmer: For sure. And it’s not till you look back and you’re like, oh, they were actually telling me this the whole time. Yeah. I agree with that. I think whether they are aware of it or not, I think the Lord starts to expose hearts. And I can pinpoint, like, where a shift started to happen even in language. It went from like I worked in media so it went from like, Nah, we don’t want our faces on the flyer to We need to be on every flyer. And I’m like, Wait. And I’m like, We didn’t pay attention. But there were signs over time that there was a disconnect, just relationally with the Lord. And it was coming out. I don’t think we were paying attention until after the fact that you go, this is not a shock. Yeah. You put the pieces together. Yeah. Yeah. We started putting the pieces together. So for sure. Yeah. Yeah.
Lisa Fields: When that happens, the tendency for people, because sometimes we can be extremists. Mhmm. Millennials and Gen z, for better or worse, we pendulum swing. I I think that’s just the human disposition. Yeah. Right? Processing this healthy in a healthy way, what would you tell someone who’s navigating it?
Brenda Palmer: I think in hindsight, I think I would have chosen to process it with a mature person who wasn’t affected by it. I think like because I didn’t I was just kinda going with whatever I thought would work. I think and most of that was just keeping it to myself. I think I had such a compassion for them as well as for how it would affect people. So I didn’t wanna cover it because I was protecting them. I wanted to cover it because I knew what it was doing to me and I didn’t want anybody else to deal with that. And so I think I would have processed it with a person who was outside of it, mature, that could handle it, that could tell me the next step to take because I didn’t know. Eventually the Holy Spirit revealed it to my mom and so I was able to kinda process, but I feel like the more people were exposed to it, I feel like I was pastoring them through it. Like, Hey, let’s all relax. Because I feel like everybody wants to burn it all down and I’m going, No, no, no, no. Let’s not burn it all down. So I feel like there was so many things I was trying to manage that I’m like, I needed a wise voice to say what I should have done. Because some people would have just been like, Why didn’t you just leave? I didn’t feel like that’s what the Lord was asking me to do, until he gave me permission to leave. And so I think, like, ultimately the Holy Spirit helps me navigate it. But I think to be able to process in real time because there were a lot of things I had to unravel because I had internalized so much through that process. So it wasn’t until months or years later, even still today, some things come up and I’m like, dang, this is connected to that. And I think it’s just because I had internalized so much and kinda, I don’t know, it was like outer body. It was like I removed myself from the victim and just was trying to manage all of it, I guess. Mhmm. Yeah. I think with so much is going on, it’s at at once. Mhmm. Like, the human body is not able to so it has to disconnect to survive. For sure.
Lisa Fields: And that healing is, like, getting you back to yourself. Mhmm. So you can actually be present in your own life again. Long process. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think, you know, that is such wise insight because I think we live in a time where people are processing their emotions online Mhmm. With people that are disconnected, but also they’re disconnected from the situation and the person. Yes. Like, these people don’t They don’t know you.
Brenda Palmer: They know a 100%.
Lisa Fields: And so it’s kinda like, hey. You could pick a person. Like, in the book, I talk about, like, you don’t have to go to the world. Mhmm. You need to go to somebody, but you don’t have to go to the Internet. Yeah.
Brenda Palmer: I think that’s wise. I would have never talked about my story if the Lord didn’t tell me to. There are so many people who knew me that didn’t know that that was I moved away, so it’s just like, Oh, Brenda always wanted to live in LA. I was like, Yeah, I did, but this helped. This helped open the door, like, for sure. And I think, like, it wasn’t it was two years later where it was the first time I talked about it, not just publicly. It started, like, in small group and somebody would mention something about forgiveness and I would share it a little bit. Because there were times I couldn’t share it without crying or my body feeling like I was reliving it. So I think all of that and I think in our culture, our generation, especially if they’re church kids, you automatically think that like what you’re journeying through is your ministry point. And it’s like, let’s get through it first. Yeah. Let’s get to a point where like you are healed enough and I didn’t want it to feel like an expose. Like, I didn’t want it to feel like I was being messy. I’m like, nah. I genuinely met God through this situation for real, for real. And that’s the part I wanna share. And so I think, like, being able to use wisdom. And please don’t go to the Internet. I see so many things on the Internet. I’m like, y’all ain’t got no friends. Because I there’s sometimes you say something and I’m like, take that down. We didn’t we didn’t need that. And so I think always having mature people that’d be like, nah. Just relax. Like, we could talk about it right here. And you don’t owe the world an explanation for what you’re navigating.
Lisa Fields: Mhmm. Yeah. Yeah. Because if it’s like, do you wanna be healed? Mhmm. I think that’s the question I started asking people. When I see if you’re going the expose route, if you’re going the social media route, do you really wanna be healed? Yeah. Now there’s that, but sometimes it’s like like you said, who do I turn to? Yeah. And you see the social media as a place where you can gain attention Mhmm. For your pain For sure. Especially when you’ve been ignored for your pain in previous seasons. Yeah. And so, yeah, I think it’s super, super helpful. Any other helpful wisdom that you would give out audience? Yeah. I think to that point. Right? Because I think sometimes
Brenda Palmer: you feel like it’s the justified thing to do. Because if you feel like that person failed and you’re aware and you feel like they still get to move on with life but you’re still in pain, you want them to feel what you feel. And so you like Or it’s like, I gotta save all the other people. Everybody else needs to know that this person is this way. And I think if that’s what’s driving you, it’s a dangerous place because then you’ll never be satisfied and you end up tearing your own self down. And so I think being able to say, What’s the motive behind why I’m sharing? And if you genuinely feel like it will help people, then okay, now God give me wisdom on how to share and what to share. I’ve done plenty of interviews where people start digging and I go, That’s not my concern. It’s not my story to tell. You know? Because sometimes people can’t help but they just like, Well I got other questions. And I’m like, It’s not my place. Well what happened to them? I don’t know. It’s between them and God. You know what I’m saying? So I think that there is a way that you can share that doesn’t I’m not covering them. I’m just honoring them as human beings who made a mistake and whatever they did to resolve that or repent is their journey. And I don’t have a position to tell that part of the story, right? But I can tell my story and what I’ve learned and I think I’m always I’m sitting with that all the time. There are times I’ve done interviews and I’m like, I’m never talking about this again. Like, because it’s I don’t want it to be like a clickbait. It’s like I’m telling it because I genuinely think there are people who are navigating what to do with that. Mhmm. And they need to know how to genuinely think there are people who are navigating what to do with that. Mhmm. And they need to know how to separate my leader from God. And so I think always, asking the Lord to search my heart and my motives on why I’m sharing it and what is the goal. Like on the other end of this, what do I want people to walk away from? Not like this messy story about what happened, but like man, I can really see that a person I’m trying to forgive, God can help me navigate that. Mhmm.
Lisa Fields: Yeah. No. That’s good. I I I love that you shared, like, I don’t know. I’m not keeping up with this. I’m not keeping up with this person in this way Yeah. To monitor how God deals with them.
Brenda Palmer: Right? That’s that’s when you know you get to health when I’m not monitoring the consequence of their actions. Yeah. No. That’s I agree. And it took a it took like it wasn’t like I was monitoring it, but I feel like when I moved to LA, I’m like, I’m starting from ground zero. And there was a part of me who was like, god, this is not fair because I did not do the thing. And I think it was like a process, but I had to be honest with God and say, Hey, I feel like you kinda left me out here. And I had to unpack those emotions and I think I don’t know. I would say from the moment I found out, I always had a level of compassion that just didn’t make me hate them. I was like, the only explanation I have is the grace of God but I always wanted to be like, It’s okay. Because it was like I could see the although I was experiencing the pain or the error of their brokenness, it was like I could always see the person behind it. And so there was always a level of empathy I carried for them and I think even still to this day. And I think that helped me navigate how to process how I felt. Like I could be honest. And I think there was also some unhealthy attachments to that because so much of my life was connected to that place. And I remember going to therapy and she’s like, what is the expectation here? Like, this ain’t going back to normal. It’s not. And I think I also needed that because I needed to be able to journey through my pain but not feel guilty for it because it was almost eliminating an area of my life that defines so much of who I am.
Lisa Fields: No. That’s that’s really good. I I think people need to hear that because I always tell people one of the things that I’ve been trying to walk through things because I’ve been in church my whole life. Mhmm. I’ve seen things, good, bad, and different. Yeah. I always tell people, like, unless it’s criminal Mhmm. You you might not get the justice. Mhmm. Or you might not see it. Yeah. Really, when you talk about, like, nondenominational structures or even you know, we go to Catholicism. Some people Yep. You know, don’t get and everybody won’t react to how people hurt you. Mhmm. Like you want them to. No. Oh. And so it you can literally I remember I talk about in the book, my first book, When Faith Disappoints. Mhmm. I was dating this guy, and in the middle he was a preacher in the middle of our relationship. He got married to another preacher that he had been Girl. Having the affair with. It was it was just a mess. Right? And I remember distinctly having conversations with other preachers about what this person did Mhmm. And them still inviting them to speak. Mhmm. And at first, it was really it really bothered me, but then I was like, yo. Everybody’s not processing this the way you are. For sure. And if you even if you don’t agree with the way they processed, I you or they handled it. Like, I my healing can’t be held up because of that. Yeah. And I think so many people, their healing gets held up because they want everybody to be as mad as they are. Yeah. And in reality, people won’t. Yeah. Like and because it’s not something it’s no, like, governing board. Mhmm. Even if they got kicked out of one church, they can start another one. For sure. Even if they got kicked off of one platform, they’ll like, people recreate themselves. And because everybody the the Internet is so massive, you can have a people that you broke in this situation, and you’ll develop a whole new following and and be successful. Like and that if you’re not careful, that will eat at your soul. Yes. Because you’ll be like, god, do you not see? Mhmm. Mhmm. You not see what they did to me? And then you’ll get angry at church people who are like, do you not see? Mhmm. And you want everybody to feel
Brenda Palmer: your pain. And I’m not saying that they’re handling it properly. Yeah. But I’m saying if your healing is held hostage by their response, you will always be broken. Yeah. A 100%. Like, I I lost essentially everybody. Mhmm. Especially when I started talking about it, they was like, oh, no. You’re not covering. That’s not my job. That is not my job to cover the past. I don’t know where we got that from. And it was just it was crazy. It was like people who already knew and they were just like excommunicated. I would get on Facebook, I’m like, Oh, I’m blocked. Text messages is green now. And I’m like, This is so odd. I’m not even actually asking you to choose a side. I want you to navigate this however you want to but I think also sometimes it’s like my truth is a mirror to a decision they made or didn’t wanna make. And I think that’s also hard too but I love that you said that. It’s like how they respond to what my experience was is not my concern. It’s like if I’m waiting on somebody to agree with my pain, I’m never gonna get healed. Because everybody’s gonna see it differently. And I think that I think that is really great advice. It’s like eventually I had to leave that where it was to be able to go forward and say, Okay, God, now deal with my heart. Because there are some things, I think I love the title of your book, ‘When Heroes Fall,’ because sometimes they don’t fall publicly, they just fall in our hearts. And we don’t ever get to express it. It’s like, ‘Man, I really held this person to a high standard and they did something that crushed me just by what they said to me.’ and they fall. And it’s not something I could ever share with anybody. So if my healing is connected to how somebody else responds to, I’ll never be able to let that go. And there have been times where stuff has crushed me and I just gotta navigate it with the Lord. And so I think that that is really key because sometimes we need somebody to amen our hurt before we accept the truth of what it is. And it’s like, nah, some things I’ve had to eat and watch that person say things and love them just the same. And it’s like, man, but they did fall just in my heart and nobody knows that but me and God. And I have to trust that him seeing it and him knowing it is enough so that I can navigate it and get past it. Yeah. I really
Lisa Fields: I had to understand what the scripture says. Vengeance is mine. Mhmm. Say it the Lord. I will repay. Because you never know what actually will impact the person. Yep. Sometimes we think we’re getting people back, and it’s not affecting them at all. Yeah. They’re not that’s not gonna that’s why you have to give it to God. Yeah. Because only he knows what actually is gonna be impactful. Right. Right. Yeah. You’re like, oh, I’m a do this. And they’re just like, okay. Yeah.
Brenda Palmer: And also too, right, is that we want them to hurt. God wants them to heal. Yeah. He wants to redeem them. Yes. So even though he gonna get them, it’s gonna be in a way that pushes them back to him. So it’s like, and as a believer, that should be my heart too. As much as it hurts, it’s like, dang, that’s God child too. He loved him too. And so one of the things I had to pray was like, Okay, God. I need your perspective of this person. Because I won’t be able to let this go until I see them the way that you do. And so I think being able to hold the tension of that, like, But also, I’m a find some love somewhere in here. But that helped to heal me. It’s like something my friend always says is like, Nobody will hurt you from a place of wholeness. It’s their brokenness that they’re unable to identify that has now caused you pain. And it’s like, Well I too have brokenness and I too am the villain in someone else’s story. And so I think when you start to see it that way, it helps you it helps the healing process for sure. Yeah. Yeah. Because you realize, yo,
Lisa Fields: I if this will make me a villain. Mhmm. For oh my god. Yes. You will be a villain if you are obsessed with vengeance Mhmm. From the people that harmed you. Yes. There’s a, I don’t know. Have have you seen Nemesis on Netflix? Yes. Oh my goodness. And, the one who was supposed to be the good guy Mhmm. Is the is the bad guy. Yes. Yes. He’s so obsessed Mhmm. With getting this person that he’s hurting other people. Yeah. He’s trying to render what he deems as justice Mhmm. In a situation with his old, with his former,
Brenda Palmer: coworker. Mhmm.
Lisa Fields: What what I’m losing the word. Not not A partner. Partner. Yes. Yes. His former partner, he’s trying to get justice that he’s missing all the ways he’s harming all the people around him that he loves the most. Mhmm. And it’s like, bro, you yes. In that situation, you were the victim. Yeah. But you have become a villain For sure. Trying to chase a villain. Yeah. And that’s, I think, what we that’s a picture of what we become when we become obsessed with vengeance. Mhmm. That when we are obsessed about vengeance, we become villains. Yeah. A 100 and it’s not always, like, on the nose either. Like, I realize that there are so many
Brenda Palmer: boundaries and walls that I put up in my life that I was limiting people’s experience of me. So it’s like, I’m a get them back and show them that nobody is ever gonna hurt me again that way. But it’s like, But God’s bringing new people into my life and I can’t even fully accept or embrace them because I’m thinking like, Um-mm. I’m a show them. It’s like, No, that makes no sense. But it’s like, That feels vindicating. It’s like, Nah. Because this time, I’m a be ready. And it’s like, Nah, you’re really actually not just becoming a villain in other people’s story, but to yourself. You’re limiting the way that God’s trying to redeem what happened. And so I do I think that is amazing. I think that’s one of the hardest parts is being okay with trusting the Lord to do what he will do the way he desires to do it. Yeah.
Lisa Fields: And when you’re the the fact that when you see because I’ve been on the other side and seen Mhmm. Like, oh, you didn’t get away with that at all. Mhmm. But by the time you do, you don’t even care. Nope. It’s like, oh, man. I actually grieve Yeah. That this is happening to you, and I don’t want this to happen. Mercy. Yes. Yeah. You’re at the place where you actually see it happen to be a intercessor. Mhmm. Where you’re not like when you’re if you’re not healed, you’ll be like, oh, yeah. You’re good. God. But when you’re healed, you’re like, god have mercy. For sure. I agree with that. Yeah. This has been a rich conversation. Anything else, wisdom, you would share with us before we end this conversation?
Brenda Palmer: Man, no. I think I enjoyed it. I was like, oh, this was good. Yeah. No. I think, I think I guess the last thing I would say is that healing is a process. I know one of the things I had to navigate was not getting over it fast as I wanted to. And it was like, there would be one thing that would trigger and I would be like, I can’t believe this is still bothering me. And so I had to learn to give myself grace and enter the process and watch the Lord unfold it. Even moving to Dallas has been so healing to me because I didn’t realize I never settle in a place because I’m always waiting for it to fall apart. And so I was like, I feel like coming here, God’s like, I’m thinking I’m good. This is like nine years ago. I’m good. And the Lord’s like, Nah, still some things in there. I don’t wanna settle in a church with people relationally too much where it then is like at some point the rug’s gonna be pulled out. And I feel like since I moved here, I’m like, Nah, Dallas is home. Like, I’m a go all in and trust the Lord. That’s the risk you take in navigating life with people. And so I trust God enough that even if it does lead to some level of hurt, that I’ll still grow from it. And so I think being okay with healing, not being one dimensional, but, like, God using even some of the most unconventional ways to, like, ensure that we become whole from things that try to crush us. Yeah. I love you how you said trust God. I remember when I was trying to
Lisa Fields: reconcile with someone, and my therapist is like, Lisa, I’m not asking you to trust them. I’m asking you to trust god. Mhmm. You have to. Because that will be who will keep you even if this goes left. Yeah. And I think it’s so important that word that you gave to trust God in these seasons where it’s like, it could all go left again. You know? As my, as one of my friends says, god is always with the dramatics.
Brenda Palmer: For sure. For sure. Why the drama?
Lisa Fields: Yes. He must love theater. But, it is it is that, like, bracing yourself. Mhmm. But if I’m trusting God, I can let go. Yep. So, Brenda, thank you for for sitting with us to talk about literally. When Heroes Fall. This has been a delightful conversation. You can get the book When Heroes Fall wherever books are sold. Remember, you can become a monthly partner or one time giver at g3project.org. Every gift helps equip. All of our resources are on our website at g3project.org. Until next time, grace and peace and God bless.