Lisa Fields: Hello. Welcome to the Jude three Project podcast. I’m your host, Lisa Fields. I’m the founder of the Jude three Project.
Panelist: Blessings, everyone. I’m Jonathan Banks. It’s an honor to moderate this panel, and we were certainly blessed by that previous panel. Let’s give them one more hand clap. But that literally was just the appetizer because you all know that these powerhouse ladies and men are about to break down purpose in an unusual way. So we’re just gonna kick it off and blessings to all those that are streaming with us. We’re glad you’re here joining us in this courageous conversation. So we are gonna kick it off by asking life’s most important question, and I’m gonna kick it off to the senior statesman on our panel first to Bishop Thomas. Bishop Thomas, what is purpose? Jonathan, you would Jonathan, you would give me this question. Yes. I would, sir. There we go. You would give me this question. I think you know, I I guess I am the oldest one on the panel. I’m looking around. I’m the oldest one. I’ve come to conclude that purpose is an aspirational value. It is something to which we aspire. It is not something somebody would say, well, I was born for this and born for that. Purpose is something you discover. It is, it is not the what you do. It is the why you do it. It is a why that is hidden in the fabric of the things we do. We do things we like. We do things our body, our mind likes to be involved in that which is fulfilling, but that’s not purpose. Purpose is what connects us to a broader community and a broader reality. It’s something we discover over time. I’m a pastor. That’s not my purpose. Okay. I’m a I’m a conference convener. That’s not my purpose. All of those allow my purpose to be evidenced. And I think when we begin to realize that purpose is not what we do Okay. But purpose is who we are. Mhmm. It it becomes something bigger than just an assignment that is accomplished. Sure. It is an aspiration that we’re always seeking to fulfill. Love that. Doctor Brown, can you pick up on that? What is purpose?
Lisa Fields: Sure. I think what I really appreciate about what you offered is that it’s the big why question. Right? And in some ways, purpose is this question about why did God place me here Mhmm. And who did God create me to be. Right? And so all of the things that we talk about in terms of doing, whether it’s profession, whether it’s placement in community or church, our doing flows from our being, and that purpose helps us to answer those big questions to really understand how can I begin to discern whether God is telling me yes about this situation or no about this situation? Right? It gives us clarity
Panelist: on what we’re called to do and be. Love that. Pick that pick up, please, doctor Lyons. What is purpose? Hello everyone. I would say that purpose is fundamentally the reason why you were created. And so when we think about God as Elohim, as our creator, he was very intentional. He wasn’t bored. He wasn’t haphazard. He didn’t say, let me just make some humans and see how it works out. Right? He literally, the bible tells us, created man, male and female in his image and likeness. And so I think at a very foundational level, we are image bearers. That’s good. Our created purpose was to bear the image of God in the earth. And so we see in Genesis, it talked about we were supposed to be fruitful and multiply and have dominion and subdue. So all of those things are part of how God wanted us to function in the earth. And the bible tells us that he gave us our purpose. Right? And so I think even though and we’ll get into this more, I’m sure, with the discussion. What that means particularly for each of us may change. I think foundationally, we wanna root our purpose in answering the question, why am I here? But take the question all the way back to the garden when he told us first why. Excellent. Doctor Foster. Well, I I want to piggyback off what you all said because you mentioned discovery. Bishop, you also mentioned how when it comes to purpose, that is your you being a pastor is not your purpose. I think it’s very important that when we ask about purpose, you mentioned the question people ask why am I here Doctor. Brown? That’s the question that echoes throughout time. When we think about purpose, I think we just just the simplest definition is, what is purpose? The reason why something was created, not where you were Doctor. Lyons. So we talk about purpose, you can’t escape the fact that something was created for a purpose. So in order to understand what a purpose is, I must understand why something was created. So now I have to ask myself, if God created me, how and why did he create me? Because I wasn’t created by accident. It wasn’t haphazard. And also God wasn’t lonely. So, if God intentionally created me, how did he do it and why did he do it? I think before I answer those two questions, we have a bigger problem. The bigger issue is, Western Christianity has distorted what it means to have purpose. We think about platform, power, prestige, when it comes to purpose, and prosperity, you know, forget about the money. Right? We think about those things when it comes to purpose, but is that really what purpose is? We know people with platforms, notoriety, we know people with money who are not happy. We know people who have all the things we named, but they still don’t feel fulfilled. So, Western Christianity has kind of tainted what it means to have purpose. And Christianity has now, in America, become individualistic. So, my purpose has been so individualized in Western Christianity that my purpose is about me, what I have, what I get, what I need. And so, it’s been distorted, which makes me have to go back to the question, how and why? How was I created, Doctor. Lyons? I was created in the image of God. In the Old Testament, there are two words that’s used in Genesis. One is islam, the other one is demut. One is image, the other one is likeness. And in the New Testament, when it talks about image, it uses the word icon. If you go back to the word, selim, that particular word in Hebrew describes the image of God. Now, that particular word was used throughout ancient times to describe a ruler, an image of a ruler. So, if I rule this particular region, I rule this particular providence, I rule this particular area, then I would have an image. So, if you came into this region or town because you saw that image, you know who ruled. See, God is too big to have his image in a region, or a city, or a state. God put his image throughout the whole earth, which is why we’re image bearers. We bear his image throughout the entire world because he reigns over the entire world. So, we represent God as image bearers, that’s one of our purposes. The second thing is, well, why did God create me? Well, if you read scripture, God created us for several reasons. If you go to Isaiah forty three and seven, the word of God reveals to us, this one area reveals to us that God created us for his glory. He chooses Israel, he brings Israel, and Isaiah reveals to us God literally creates us for his glory. Then the next thing that Isaiah says in that particular passage is, I, you have been called by my name. Then he says, you have so I may get glory. Then he says, I created you and I formed you for my glory. As a believer, we wrestle with, well, do I have the right job? Am I in the right position? Do I have enough prestige? Do I have enough money? We’re asking the wrong question. The fundamental question we must ask ourselves when it comes to purpose is, well, why was I created? We were created for God’s glory, that he may get glory through my life. And I think we may have messed up what purpose is and what calling is. So in that, do I have an individual purpose? How do I find my purpose? And I guess we won’t veer off too much into calling, doctor Foster. So let’s let’s stick on purpose. How do I find that purpose? How do I find that purpose?
Lisa Fields: I think first and foremost, purpose is a discernment process. Right? As we continue to grow in our faith and understand even how our previous experiences have shaped us, right, a part of the question we’re asking God is, God, please show me how you’re going to use my past, my experiences, my gifts, my graces for your glory. Right? And so as a mental health professional, first, that means I need to get to know myself intimately. Right? I can’t understand why God created me if I don’t even know who I am, if I don’t even know my idiosyncrasies and the things that make me me. Right? So it’s an internal introspection process, but not in a way that is absent from allowing God to really show us who we are. And I think that process allows us to see who we are and and the places God is calling us to operate. The piece that I think many of us struggle with is the fact that some of us are in communities that don’t actually see us as who we are. Right? They see representations of us and they see the way, they think we should be. And it’s important for us to be able to distinguish that because y’all know you can’t just because somebody says something about you or to you, it doesn’t mean that that is God’s will for you. People make stuff up all the time. Right? And so even as we’re in community, there’s still a discerning process around asking God to guide us to people who will help us to see ourselves
Panelist: as we begin to understand that purpose. Love that. Build on that, please, doctor Lyons. Sure. I would say that is I agree with my sister that that’s definitely a healthy step in discerning your purpose. Mhmm. But to get back to what I was saying even earlier, what we were talking about earlier in terms of foundationally being created in the image of God and his likeness for his glory, we have to actually go to scripture, which is the means in which we go to God. Mhmm. Because God is actually trying to help us understand us by first helping us understand him. And I think we live in a world that is very self obsessed. Okay. And we wanna use scripture like, we read the bible, tell me about me, tell me about me, tell me about me, what I’m supposed to do, what I’m supposed to do. And God is saying, I I have this word for you because I’m trying to get you to be introduced to me. And I don’t believe that we are ever really successful in being able to understand ourselves in any way, more or less our purpose, if we don’t understand God, if we don’t understand his purposes. And so I think we start there. The more you know God, the more you understand God, the one who created you Mhmm. The more you will be able to understand yourself. And so you really cannot understand yourself apart from God. Yeah. You understand yourself through God. He’s the manufacturer. Mhmm. We hear that metaphor and analogy a lot. And so if you wanna understand why you are on the planet, if you wanna understand what you’re supposed to be doing, who you’re supposed to be being, then you gotta go to the source, the one who made you. Love that. Bishop Thomas, would you help speak to the concept of your individual purpose complementing our corporate purpose that doctor Foster indicated? I I think I think one of the things we come to grips with is that god god did not create us in outer space. He created us in a context, a context that creates a story, a narrative. There’s a setting. There are instances or incidences that happen, and they’re characters. That’s us. So that the discovery that this is a discovery process as an individual, as a community, as a world. Because I live in a context, I’m an African American pastoring a church in an African American community among African American people. I’ve grown up in that bubble. That is the context of the world in which I have functioned and lived, and the incidences that have happened in my life have happened as that world collided with other worlds. It is within that context that I must find my purpose. An African American spiritual says, Lord, how come me here? Lord, how come me here? Given the reality of my context. But Viktor Frankl writes a book being an Austrian, psychiatrist, thrown in a concentration camp wondering if he’ll live another day when a man says give me your goal and he has to decide, he discovers that the ultimate quest of life is for meaning. What am I here for? It took me an involvement in my contacts. Pastoring a church, serving a church, working in an African American community, living with the dissonance between what I believe and what I see, between what my faith tells me and what my faith what my faith allows to be presented to me. Mhmm. What I believe about God and what God is showing me are is real about life. To discover my own individual purpose. And it is simply a statement, and I think every person ought to work on their purpose statement. Mine is simply this, to help people discover the meaning of faith in their lives and the will of God for their lives and the circumstances and situations in which they find themselves. I believe I was created for that. There may be some other things I do and some other things I accomplish and people will applaud me for, but what I’m created for, my purpose, which is not always seen by others, and because it’s not seen, I’m not always sure it’s validated. That’s good. Or valuable. Sure. But it is to understand the meaning of faith and the will of God in the circumstances and situations in which you find yourself. Love that. Doctor Foster, sometimes it’s easy to understand something by understanding what it’s not. So what are some harmful notions about purpose? You already gave us the delineation between calling and purpose. What are some harmful thoughts about purpose that you see derail people? Yeah. One, that that it’s it’s not achievable. Okay. What what I mean by that, if you go back to to what, doctor Lyons mentioned about us being credited in the image of God, it’s starting with the word of God. And one of the issues we have when it comes to purpose is, I’m gonna use your your your example of a manual. So if we’re created by God and the Bible is a manual, have you read it? And so we we walk through this life as believers and Christians, but do we actually know what God’s word says? And so, one of the issues we have is that we’re in one of probably one of the most biblically illiterate eras that we’ve been in. People don’t know the Bible. And so and then we have I’m about to get in trouble, but I’m a say it anyway. You have motivational speakers. I’m about to get in trouble, but I’m a say it anyway. And I’m a walk dangerous. We’re not getting the Bible. And so when we’re not getting the Bible from the pulpit, or we’re not being discipled, or we’re not on fire for God’s word for ourselves, we don’t even know what the manual says, so how can I live out my purpose? The word of God says that with this line, we must glorify him with our life. But it goes back to now, what are some harmful things we could do? You could think that you can find meaning in life by yourself individually, like attaining things will give you meaning. I’m gonna tell you why that’s a problem. If you read the book of Ecclesiastes, chapter one opens up, it says about verse two, meaningless, meaningless, meaningless. Then it says, utterly meaningless. Right? If you read the book of Ecclesiastes, you study all your theologians and seminarians and all that, you’ll see the recurring theme in the book of Ecclesiastes goes back to what Doctor. Brown says, what is the true meaning of life? How can I find meaning in life? So, it is a search or a journey to find meaning in life. You get to chapter 12 and the teacher says, This is my conclusion. Everything else is meaningless. Where can I find meaning? Fear God and obey him. Fear God and follow his commands. That’s doable, but when we make purpose about what house you live in, what kind of car you drive, how many followers you have, what kind of platform you sit on, you’ve already distorted it. Because everyone’s journey, like you said Bishop, is going to be different. That may not be I’m going to use a word you may not want to hear. It may be God’s will you don’t have a lot of followers. It may be God’s will that you don’t stand on certain platforms. That may be God. In the book of Y’all mad at me right now. Look, think about this, Acts 16, Acts 16, right? I just preached this, Acts 16. Paul wanted to go to Asia Minor to do the will of to preach the gospel of God because that was his passion. I’m telling you when I’m wrong, this is Bible not Babel. So, he’s going to Asia Minor to pray, his desire was to preach. This is crazy, Acts 16 says, The Holy Spirit wouldn’t let him preach. You didn’t hear me. Read your Bible. Acts 16 says, The Holy Spirit would not let him What do you do when you’re preaching when the Holy Spirit says you can’t preach? Could I go a little deeper? Read a couple verses down, then it says, Then he tried to go down into the entryway to get into Asia Minor. You know what the word of God says? And the spirit of Jesus wouldn’t let me in. He has two problems, the Holy Spirit won’t let him preach, and Jesus won’t let him go in there. Right? Then the word of God says he goes to sleep, right? He has a vision, he gets a vision from God, and God shows him a man telling him over in Philippi, hey in Macedonia, hey Paul come over here. Then the word of God says, they concluded that God was, I’m going to use a word, I’m not trying to get in trouble, maybe God is calling us to Macedonia, alright? I call that a triune blessing, why? The Holy Spirit won’t let him in there, Jesus won’t let him in there, and God revealed him where he should do the purpose in which he has through his calling. Just saying. Doctor Lyons, doctor Foster, name checked you first, so I’m gonna come back to you. What are some harmful ideas around purpose? I think one of the harmful ideas around purpose is not valuing and honoring and respecting the purpose God gave you and lusting and Come on. You know, having idolatry around someone else’s purpose. Wow. And so I think that we are often looking outside of God and being amazed and, wishing we were like some other man and some other woman, wishing we had their life and their gifts and their calling. And that is so disrespectful to God Wow. Who put something very special and unique in you. And so I think about the analogy in scripture about the body. Right? And so we are called as the people of God a body, and he uses the actual body to describe many different members who have many different functions. And so somebody is a foot, somebody is a hand, somebody is a eye, someone is a head. But if you’re lips and you wanna be a belly button, you’re gonna have a problem in life. And so, you know, one of the things I you know, we watch all of these things on YouTube, and we’re, like, amazed when people either have been amputees or they were born without arms, for instance. And we see them doing these amazing feats, like reaching up to cabinets with their feet or cooking with their toes, and we’re amazed because we all know that the toes were never meant to do that. But that person adapted. But here we are hands and we’re trying to walk on them instead of reach. And I think we have to begin to realize everyone is as important, as significant, as useful, as meaningful to God because we’re made for him. Right? The Bible says we were created. He we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for his purposes. Right? So if he made us, he gave us a purpose. In fact, it even says, everything that god made has is has a purpose, even the wicked. Right? And so I think we have to, one, honor who god is and what he did for us by giving us our purpose. So it’s harmful when you want something someone else has. I think the other thing that’s harmful about purpose is when we want our purpose to exclusively serve us. Come on. When everything that we do and we’re created to be is first for the glory and honor to god. So we present our members, right, as living sacrifices unto God to be used for his glory. But many times we’re trying to discern our purposes because we wanna know how we can get rich, how we can be satisfied, how we can fulfill the journal dreams that we have. And it doesn’t mean that the dreams that God has given us for our lives are not intricately connected to God’s purpose for us, but we have to first go to him with it. We have to submit the ten year plan, submit the goal, submit the vision to the Lord. We’re doing vision boards without God. And and so we do need to go through the the the the habit of trying to discern. And one of the ways that we get our purpose and gifts discerned is by being in community. So when you’re just serving Jesus Christ, people notice some stuff. He uses the body to notice different parts of the body. There are some parts of myself I can’t see and other people see them. And so I think that we have to serve in community. We have to be around people to let people live with us and see us and often call things out of us and to know that our gifts and our purpose aren’t exclusively for us. Love that. Doctor Brown, how do we discern more of our purpose as we discover more of our calling? And I’m gonna add because of what doctor Lyons says, our giftings. Because our giftings and callings are not always perfectly aligned in that season. So how do those two play into our purpose?
Lisa Fields: Sure. So, you know, the other piece I would add to what you offered is that walking in purpose does not always feel good. Right? Like, we sometimes think, oh, I’m gonna be walking with the Lord and we’re gonna be skipping down the yellow brick road. Right? And it’s really sometimes walking in purpose is uncomfortable because we have to say no to some things that look shiny and attractive to us, but aren’t what God is calling us to. Right? And I think for us as believers, a big piece of that work is distinguishing talents from spiritual giftings. That’s not the same thing. Right? I can be good at something, but it’s a different question about, is God calling me to this thing? And even more importantly, is God calling me to this thing in this moment? Right? Because because we’re in community, I might have certain gifts that god is really using to edify this particular community at a certain time. And if I need to shift to a different community, there might be different gifts that god is preparing me to use and equipping me to help edify that kingdom. Right? So for me, a part of the process, as you said, is when I know I’m in spirit led community, those relationships help me to see myself more clearly and helped me to understand God. I’ve had people say things to me, you know, you could call it a prophecy. And at the time, I’m like, I have no idea what you’re talking about, but I trust you and I trust that you know God, and so I’m gonna pray about it. And ask God to reveal to me, like, what does this mean? Right? I also think there’s a way in which and and this happens in a in a capitalistic sort of work based society is we think of purpose as being connected to our work, as in the place that we go to get a check every day. And for some of us, that’s not the case. Right? So what do you do as in profession does not necessarily answer the purpose question. Amen. Right? So we need to be able to distinguish that too. Some of us have the blessing perhaps, for some of us it might be a burden, of doing work that is our purpose work, but purpose is much bigger than just what you do to get a check. Right? It’s about how you move through the world. And so it as we understand the way God operates in us, I I I love to talk about spiritual gifts and the way I frame it is like when I’m operating in community and I feel like I have help. Right? I have this sense that what happened was bigger than what I was able to offer, and I recognize the Holy Spirit’s filling in the gaps there. Right? And so I think it’s an opportunity for us to see the fruit of what we’re able to offer in community, but also to be in constant connection with the spirit so we know when it’s time for us to do something and when it’s time for us to sit and receive so that there can be, that back and forth there. Very good. Bishop,
Panelist: as we look at calling and purpose, what are those questions that we ask ourselves? What do we chase after? Because are we supposed to chase after purpose, or are there other questions or, journeys that just help us fulfill our purpose? How do we chase after this? Interesting. You should say that the song the gospel song that was sung some years ago, my my daughter-in-law used to sing it in our churches. I’m chasing after God, not chasing after a job, not chasing after some position. And I think so often, especially in this this day and age of biblical illiteracy, of of rank individualism, and of being an acquisitive instead of an inquisitive society, we are more concerned with defining ourselves by what we have and what we get and where we are. Mhmm. So that you even people who serve in churches are looking to be at the church. You know, as if it’s Willy Wonka’s chocolate factory. You know, they’re looking to be at this place. Oh, I’m at so and so. I’m here. I’m there. As if it it’s not made up of the same people that’s at Little People’s Baptist Church or I don’t know where you are, holiness. You know? So, you know, you they’re the same folk, just in a different location. We get we have misunderstood what a calling is. A calling is a consuming passion to, as each person has said, to immerse yourself in the will of God for your life as you have seen yourself to be a part of the presence of god. K. You are fit we are fearfully and wonderfully made. And as all of that begins to burst out on the horizon of your mind, you begin to see that there is so much more to you than anything you can define, and that God can do wondrous things through you so that God doesn’t get just the glory through your life, but god gets the glory for your life. And that the greatest purpose we fulfill is that folk don’t just see god getting glory through our lives and our calling and assignment and whatever, but that they begin to realize that god gets the glory for a lump of clay that was a hood rat, that was, a chicken head, that was, a liar, that was a drug dealer, that was I mean, there’s a whole lot of other names I could use here, that has become this light of illumination. Mhmm. This this this place of respite, this voice of refuge. And the only way to say that night has become day is to say God did it. I love that. Doctor Foster, tease out the relationship between ambition and purpose. Yes. So I I I I gotta address some stuff with with Colin if I if I can to get there. That’s alright. So I’m trying to make this as as simple as I’m trying to when I was in seminary, my preaching professor used to say, you got to make sure you bring it down the ladder of extraction. So I’m trying to make purpose in calling these these terms we’re using as simple as possible because I think sometimes we make it so complicated that people get held in bondage. So if we just if we would say that one could say that purpose is God getting getting glory through my life. If you say purpose is God getting glory through my life, then you have to ask yourself, well, what is the definition of of of calling? Calling, Bishop, you just you you had it. It’s it’s an urge, an inner urge, or a call to to some vocation, to some profession, some area. And it could not, like you said, it might not it may not be your your actual job you get paid from. You say it one more. So the place in which you get that urge of calling may not be the place you get a paycheck from. So it could be a different arena. It could be a totally different arena. So I’m saying that because So say calling. So I believe calling is the way that our purpose is lived out. You may be called to a particular arena in a different season of your life, but your purpose doesn’t change. And my purpose is to give God glory. What do you mean? So look at the different seasons of your life that you were in, no matter where you were. If the goal is that I gotta get glory through my life, then that means my calling is the way in which God does that. Let me see if I can help you. John 17, Jesus says, Lord I’ve glorified you here on earth. What did you do? I finished the work you gave me to do. So how do I give God glory? You helping me preach. By doing the work you gave me to do. So our calling comes with assignments and things that we do. But the purpose is that I give God glory on earth. So that means in any facet or any arena or any place you find it or season you find yourself in, you can always give God glory. He can always get glory through your life. You could be making coffee, you could be selling cars, it doesn’t matter what your job is. You could be in a classroom teaching students. Can God get glory out of your life? Absolutely. So the arena is maybe different for each of us, but the goal of is God getting glory through my life should never change. Lord I glorified you on earth, what did you do? I did the work you gave me to do. And in each season of your life the work might be different, but the goal never changes, it is to give that God may get glory through my life. And so when we think about this idea of purpose and calling, I think you have to realize that how connected the two are. That the assignments that God has ordained for my life in different seasons may change, but the goal does not change. No matter what platform, no matter what arena you are in, the goal is, is God the question should be, is God getting glory through through my life where I am right now? Because I remember when I was in seminary hungry. I remember when I was, you remember when you were in undergrad or when you were in school, you were in seasons where it was like this is difficult, but you were called to be a student. Right? Did God get glory through your life? I used every bit of this mind, this brain I have in that classroom. And then when that season was up a door of opportunity came. Maybe because we’re not comfortable doing what God called us now. If you’ll be faithful over a few things then he may bless you with some more things, but you can’t even be faithful and honor him in the place you are now. So I I wonder if we’re just missing how simple it can be if we just honor God where we are. He can get glory in any season of your life that you’re living in. That simplicity. Please. Yeah. I I I totally agree with that. I think we all should be able to leave here today and say we all have the same purpose if we’re Christians. Come on. We are to bear the image of God Come on. And use all of our lives to bring god glory. So we could all come up with whatever iteration of or version of that statement you want. The calling, as we are hearing, is the compulsion. Come on. It’s the thing that won’t leave you. It is the it’s when God is drawing you to something. But one thing and, I mean, I’ve done a lot of counseling and meet with a lot of people. One thing I wanna free us up about though is the fact that we have a lot of liberty in the kingdom. And I think one of the reasons why we’re so frustrated sometimes around purpose is because we’ve talked ourselves into believing that there’s this one single thing that I’ve gotta use my entire life to figure out. I gotta go to the right bible study. I gotta stand in the right prophecy line and wait for someone to tell me my reason for existing. There are a multitude of things that we can be doing to give God glory. The question is, am I using my life for that? What I will say is we see this even in Exodus. I think it’s I’m I’m gonna just read it. Exodus 31 verses three through five because god will equip you for whatever the specific task is. We can think of calling as a specific task in a specific season. Exodus thirty one three through five talks about, building the, the tabernacle. Right? He says, god fills us. It’s I wanna make the point that god fills us with everything that we need. The bible says, I have filled him with god’s spirit and with wisdom, understanding, and ability. And in this case, in every craft to design artistic things. So it’s telling us that to even build the tabernacle, God had to fill them. But but check it out. The first thing they got filled with was God. It was he they were filled with God’s spirit, then he gave them some wisdom, then they gave them some he gave them some understanding, then he gave them ability. We’re looking at our gifts to say what can we do with the gifts and we’re not let God fill us with himself. They’re first filled with God. And so you wanna live out your calling to fulfill your purpose, be filled with the spirit of God. Grow in wisdom. Grow in understanding. And know that God has already made the deposit in your life for you to do the specific thing that he’s called you to. Doctor. Lyon Masterful. Masterful. If you all can just succinctly, maybe one minute touch on what is your most profound or best advice to someone that may be struggling with their concept or that they may not be fulfilling their purpose? And you guys have unpacked masterfully that our purpose really is to give God glory. What is your advice to someone that feels like they’re not fulfilling their purpose, they’re not living their purpose, and you all can jump in at any order, just your succinct one minute advice. What do you tell that person that feels like they’re not fulfilling their purpose or struggling to fill their purpose? I I think doctor Lyons just just hit it. I I I mean, I don’t know what else to say. To add to what you just said, there is an issue in the body of Christ where where we we don’t realize that you actually have free will. And so, God is okay with you making choices about assignments that you do. He’s okay with that. And I think sometimes we limit free will and we’re praying about things that we could actually just do when you’re filled with His Spirit. Right? God placed him in the garden, he gave him free will and told him just don’t mess with this. So he had access to make choices about everything else, just don’t touch this. So I think sometimes we limit our our ability, but when you’re filled with the spirit you can discern, you have discernment and you can make better choices. But Jesus says this, he says, let your light so shine that when others see your good works, they glorify the Father in heaven. Back to work, back to assignment, back to calling, but also back it brings us all the way back to glory. You we have will. The the first Thessalonians says, it is the will of God. What is the will of God? That you be sanctified. You can’t you can’t separate purpose calling from the will of God. You gotta be filled with his spirit. Third says third says, notice, literally says, it is God’s will that you be sanctified. That means be set apart. If you’re not set apart, you you and and let me just help the church for a second. You’re not you’re not set apart to go in isolation and hide somewhere. Right? Because it because it back in the day was, oh, you’re you’re saved. Don’t go to the movies. You can’t burn your CDs. You remember them days? Like, if you had to throw everything away, you’re saved. Right? Then then I had it I had an epiphany. I had a revelation. Now, if God called me to be light and I’m isolated, how in the world can I be light in dark places? Right? So it is my it is God’s call on my life that I take the light because I’m filled with the spirit of God to go into these dark places. And when I get there, they’ll realize that I’ve been set apart, I’ve been sanctified. So my light shines greater in darkness, but at first I’m simply filled with the spirit of God to do the will of God and do the assignments he’s ordained for my life. So sometimes we may have to discern, is God allowing me to be make a choice to just do something or am I praying for two years about something I could have did yesterday? Wow. Others? Those struggling.
Lisa Fields: You know, the piece I would add to what you offered is that context really matters. Right? So some of us have been formed in families or in communities where we actually haven’t learned that we have free will. Right? Where right behavior was that which the authority said I could do. Right? And so back to this point of the only way we can discern our purpose is to really get close with God. Right? Because if I’m in an oppressive system, God will help me to understand the ways in which I can access freedom. If I’m in oppressive relationships, god will help me to compare that relationship to god’s love for me so that I can see the ways in which it doesn’t affirm me. Right? And so I think for some of us, the curiosity we can have around this question is, am I in nurturing, supportive, loving, spirit filled environments that support not just who God says I am, but what God is calling me to do?
Panelist: Excellent. Could I add to that? Please, bishop. Could I add to that? I think sometimes when we wrestle with this thing called calling, we’re constantly trying to bring God into our reality. You know, we don’t realize it, but we’re trying to get him into ours as if he’s oblivious to it. When god is trying to get us into his, he’s trying to get us to lift our lives and ourselves and our reality up into the vastness of his reality, which changes the complexion of everything we’re dealing with. It takes us away from that community that has defined us, And it it shows us that there’s something much bigger, something much broader, something freer. We do not discover freedom bringing God into our reality. We discover freedom entering into his reality, into his reality. When we talk about this calling idea and and the irony of it is we often get calling and position mixed up. I know I’m called to be a pastor. I hate to fill out forms. I hate to have to have all these meetings. I hate to have to talk to certain folk, but I’m called to be a pastor. I’ve come to understand when you’re wrestling with what your purpose is, one of the best places to find it, linking bringing in going into god’s reality, linking the fact that we must be filled with god’s spirit, is understanding that the that god is triune as has been referred to and works in a triune way. Paul says that that Jesus gives us our assignment. Jesus assigns us the task. The Holy Spirit gives us the gifts to do the task, and the father gives the increase. When you are wrestling with what is my purpose for me, look at what your gifts are. Look at what the lord is gifting you with. Look at where your gifts are operating and begin to discover for example, I’m a pastor, but that’s my gifts are different. I got a gift of encouragement. I have a gift of exhortation, a a gift of of knowledge or gift of wisdom and a gift of knowledge. Why do these things come together in my reality? Regardless of the crazy world in which I live, why does he put these things here? Not so I can fill out forms. Not so I can fill out the baptismal certificate. That’s good. And not so I can have a trustee boy meeting. But these things are here so that I can I can in a certain way because the gifts are given to us so that we can edify the body and bring people to Jesus? So that as I’m using that gift, what I’m doing is opening the eyes of the blind, being light in dark places. And I began to realize this is my purpose. This is my purpose, to be light in darkness, to to be hope where there is despair, to be joy where there is no joy, to be freedom where there was bondage in which I was a slave. Love that. Please. I wanted to say most of us are very familiar with, the passage of scripture that says all things work together for the good of them that love the lord and are called according to his purposes. Right? And we love that scripture until the all things that need to be worked together ain’t all that. And so what I wanna say for people who are struggling with identifying their purpose to not think that your purpose is only the things you love and enjoy and are good at because God doesn’t waste pain. And for many of us, we are miss misapplying the scripture, forgetting those things which are behind our press on to the mark of the high calling in Christ Jesus. Many of us are running from our past pain, our past trauma, and it is something beautiful there that God wants to birth a very specific calling and or purpose for your life. And so I think about it. I’m all I’m a a metaphor person. I think about it in terms of baking a cake. Right? When my mama taught me how to bake a cake, we know we got flour, and it better have a whole lot of butter and sugar and all that. I’m not making a dietary point. It’s a theology point, so stay with me. But one thing that was curious to me that always had to go in the cake was vanilla extract. Just a smidge. And if you ever dare to taste vanilla extract, just on your finger, just put it on your lip. It’s horrible. It’s bitter. Put in the cake. But it was a required ingredient in the cake. And somehow with all of the sugar and butter and flour, a drop of vanilla extract was needed. But when God, our mothers, would mix the whole thing together, Something beautiful and delicious would come from it. So what about your life is the vanilla extract you think you have to leave out? Put it in the cake of your purpose because I believe that God doesn’t waste pain. He doesn’t waste trauma. And if God said it pleased him to crush Jesus because of what was gonna come from it, maybe there’s something beautiful that’s gonna grow and live from some of our darkest moments. And don’t forget the icing. We would love to have our panelists respond to your questions. You know how we do it. The code is gonna jump up on the screen. You could add your questions. You can vote for other questions to be promoted. We’re gonna kick off our q and a session with a question that’s already been submitted, and again, anyone can feel free to jump in. We’re gonna try to keep our answers succinct so that we can get to as many questions as possible. The question that has been submitted is, are spiritual gifts a litmus test for purpose? So it may not define your purpose, but does the spiritual gift determine is that really a purpose for you right now? One thing I would say is, I don’t know how you will complete your purpose without them. Very good. Because in essence, you’re saying you’re gonna do the work without the holy spirit. And so I think that is almost an impossibility. I do believe that some people are applying for positions that Jesus had declared vacant. And so they they want they they want they wanna be somewhere that they have absolutely no gifting for. And you can normally tell it. You can normally tell it. They cannot walk in it because it doesn’t give them peace. And because it doesn’t give them peace, they don’t radiate peace. They radiate chaos. The the gifts of the spirit bring about a sense of calmness, assuredness, assertiveness, and accomplishment. They the gifts of the spirit are given so that we can accomplish the will of God. So I don’t see any way in the world to do it without them. And if and if you have a mix match of gifts and assignment, the chances are you went for a job the Holy Spirit did not put on your calendar. Love that. And, panelists, if you allow me, if someone does answer a question, especially as completely as Bishop did, we’re gonna go on to the next question. You all can feel free to to popcorn in so we can make sure we get to as many questions as possible. Love this question. How do we help disciple young people into growing into their calling purpose without stifling their dreams? I am looking at you, doctor Jessica, but
Lisa Fields: anyone can feel free to to add in. Sure. So there are a couple things I will offer. First is in our interactions with young people, we have a responsibility to be spirit led. Right? So just because I have an idea as an adult about the way that things should be, that doesn’t mean I then should project that onto this child who has their own unique purpose and gifting that God is offering them. Right? So we need to check ourselves first. Am I doing this just because I’m an adult and I think I know what’s right? Or is God really calling me to interact with this young person in this way? So that’s the first piece. The second piece I would offer is that the way that we can engage young people is to invite them into their own relationships with God and then be conversation partners with them so we actually don’t have to tell them anything other than to help them seek God. Right? We’re just journeying with them and providing them a path. Sometimes as adults, we forget how much clarity young people can have and how much wisdom and how much connection young people can have to God. And so, I think it’s important for us to rest in that and even when they’re confused, it’s not always about answering those questions as it is about guiding them through a process of discovery.
Panelist: And I would just say as a parent, as a parent real quick, be mindful about how often you ask your children what you wanna be. Because many times that question is our own fear and insecurity about whether or not we did a good job as a parent to raise children who are gonna go off and be successful so we can feel good about ourselves. But give them space and permission to discover a lot of things and first discover God. Teach your children to pray so that you don’t become the Holy Spirit in their lives. Wow. Doctor Foster, where does the concept of the anointing fit into this conversation? The concepts of the anointing. Well, throughout scripture, you can see that, when God called now this is this is slightly different, but when God called certain individuals to particular assignments, he anointed them. The anointing did two things. One, even if we look at, let’s just look at the life of David for instance. He wasn’t supposed to have the position. His dad didn’t even think of him about the position. He wasn’t even in the lineup for the position. He was over in the field smelling like sheep, and they called him in and the oil fell on him. Now, one, it identified between that was a statement to his father and his brothers. That was a statement before him and his brothers. Not only was a statement, it also reassured David that God was affirming the place he was supposed to be. Also, we saw that same anointing that God put on David’s life come to fruition later on. And so, there’s a couple things that the anointing just if you look at David, like, there’s so many other people. The oil that falls on the the beard of Aaron, I ain’t got time to preach all six of these sermons to y’all. But if we look at the life of David, a couple of things are identified. One, when you look at how David is anointed for that position, it made a statement to to the observers. Those who were for him and those who were against him. David did not go to be the king the next day. I don’t think you heard me. After he was anointed to do the assignment, he did not do the assignment the next day. So So we talk about purpose. Just connecting this to purpose and calling. God can anoint you to do something and you don’t do the assignment tomorrow. He can use you, and and to show you that this is what he’s called you to do and build you up to that place. He is sovereign. You said all things work for the good of those who love the Lord and be called according to his purpose. So I think sometimes we have to look at the anointing, we have to understand that the anointing one identifies, but the anointing also reveals to others that God has chosen you, but it also reveals to the person who is being anointed that God is confirming that this is what he’s called you to do. And, I’m sorry, Pastor Bishop, you talked about this. We couldn’t do this without the anointing of God. And I think it’s very important to understand, that there are some assignments that God will call you to do that you you absolutely cannot do it without the anointing of God. You need the anointing of God in order to do what he’s assigned and ordained for your life in order to do. So my suggestion would be don’t go do it without God’s anointing. Excellent. Someone’s asked a question that, a number of people have affirmed. I sometimes struggle with the balance of God’s sovereignty versus human will. Can we miss God’s purpose if we don’t say yes to his call or miss his timing, or will we eventually end up where he intends? Can you mess up God’s plan for your life? I think, you know, maybe because I’ve gotten old. There’s a benefit in getting old. You you you you learn some things. I think if we think the end of that god’s eternal plan for us is to stand before him and hear him tell us what we didn’t do right, we miss it. Really, at the end of days, I don’t think the big issue is going to be what we didn’t do or what rather what we did do wrong. The big question as we get older is not what we did wrong, but what we missed, what we missed out on, what we might didn’t take advantage of. I think when we think about the sovereign will of God, we miss that God’s God’s real plan for us is to grow from point a to point b. It is about who we become. It is a it is not God is God. He doesn’t need me to do. He created me to become, and becoming is always greater than being. So that in the end of my journey, when I stand before him, he and I know we talk about the books will be open and this, that, and the other, and and and we get great joy out of seeing who’s going to hell. I really think what God is going to look at is how the experiment of my experiences, the experiment of my experiences, all of my life being an experiment, and the experiment is run not in a lab, but in my experiences, has brought me to the place where as I looked at my mother the week she died laying in the bed with us and I said, mama, it’s okay to go. And she just looked at me and smiled. I realized the end is to have become or grown to the point of the measure of the statue of Christ. As Paul says, to grow to the measure of the statue of Christ where God is all in all. It is God’s not gonna be caught up in the church. They knocked down one of the churches I built. It’s been leveled to the ground. But what God will look at is this kid who grew up in this context, whose life was measured and mannered and marked by a reality. How far out into the universe of God did he go? Yeah. Wow. And I want to hear him at that point say, well done. Yeah. I see doctor Foster’s finger. We’re gonna honor that. No. I appreciate it. So I’m I want the reason my hand is raised is because I struggle with this. So originally, my intentions were I was going to school to be a neurosurgeon. And and, God navigating my footsteps. And I wrestled with the sovereignty of God and free will. And so, that’s why I really want to try to make this as short as possible. But what I realized I was confusing sometimes we confuse God’s sovereignty and free will as for consequences. I’m going to tell you what I mean by that. So, if I have free will, I get to make choices. But when I think about, if I do this wrong, now I’m talking about consequences and judgment. Sometimes I can confuse the justice of God and the judgment of God for God punishing me for making a bad choice that’s not necessarily sin, or disobedience, or rebellion. I sincerely wanted to be a neurosurgeon. There’s nothing wrong with it. It’s not sin to be a neurosurgeon. It’s sin to walk in disobedience. But God navigated my steps. I’m saying this because when we look at free will, there are consequences. We look at the sovereignty of God. So God is sovereign and God’s providence never fails. So if you make a choice to go down a road, Paul let’s go back to Paul’s example in Acts 16. Paul had a passion, a good one, to preach the gospel in Asia Minor. Is there anything wrong with preaching the gospel? No. Paul had a passion, he had a burden to go preach in Asia Minor, but God, he was literally going to do it. The Holy Spirit told him no, Jesus told him no, and he ended up in Macedonia, established the church at Philippi. Because you can go What he was doing was amazing, he was just in the wrong place. And by God’s providence he ordered each of his steps to his sovereign will. So sometimes we look at when it comes to God’s will and free will, Paul exercised his free will. What did he do? He tried to go preach at Macedonia. He exercised free will. He tried to go establish a church at Adriamani, he tried to go preach. God just said no and redirected his path to Macedonia. I believe when we actually go out and do the things, we don’t have to be afraid. If you’re not trying to manipulate God, if you’re not trying to make excuses for sin, then God will gently nudge you to where you’re supposed to be so that you can do the assignment he has for your life, and he can get glory through your life. So I wasn’t afraid to be a neurosurgeon, God just had other plans, but he lovingly he brought people in my life to speak to me. Mhmm. Right? He brought people who prophesied over my life. I had to take it to God and test it though, because everybody some people are prophesying, some people are prophet lying. There’s a I’m just saying. There’s a difference. But the thing is I was sincere about wanting to be a neurosurgeon, but God had other plans for my life. Now I’m a pastor and a professor and that’s fine. I love it. But God gently navigated my steps because I wasn’t trying to manipulate his hand to do what I wanted. My goal was, Lord, I wanna be a neurosurgeon so I can help save people’s lives. He said, Bet, I’m a use you to save the most important part of the human existence, the soul. So I’m with you. Was that an audible bit, by the way? Say it again. Did you hear the audible bit? I’m sorry. I was just making a a bad joke. John. John. Yeah. Can I just add to what it said? You know, that that is so important that the first thing we forget is we didn’t give ourselves free will. Because God gave you You know, it’s it’s not like, you know, all of a sudden we went down and dug it up at the ground and suck it out of pocket. God gave us free will so we could choose him. So we would know it was our choice, not him forcing us. He gave us he gave us free I wanted to be an economist to do the exact same thing. But God gave us free will so we could say so we couldn’t blame him. He doesn’t want his sovereignty to be something we blame. He gives us free will so that in the end of the day, when I look at the choices that I’ve made, they’re mine. I chose not to be an economist. You didn’t make me. I chose it. You gave me free will, and you allowed me to make the choice. Love that, Bishop. Thank you. There’s a question that was submitted. What are healthy ways to separate our purpose from our individual passion? So I think we’ve touched on this a little bit, but help us understand those healthy ways, those questions that we can ask ourselves and in our community. What are the healthy ways?
Lisa Fields: Obviously, it’s a deep question. So one thing I would offer is we need to be in constant prayer that God would align our desires with God’s will. Right? So I have things that I like to do. I like to do puzzles. That’s not a part of my call. It’s just a thing I like to do. Right? But if I get so distracted by things that I like to do that I don’t give the best of what I have to offer to my purpose, then that’s disobedience. Right? And so I think there’s a process by which we really need to continue to ask God, God, show me what you have for me to do and help me to get in line with that. I believe that God is patient enough to be present in our detours as we talked about earlier. Right? And I I know I’ve said this before, but I think the other piece is getting in spirit led community. Right? Be in relationship with people who are all seeking God in that way, and then you can support and encourage each other as you navigate that process.
Panelist: One of one of the things that, scripture says that to what you said is that God will give you Lord will give give me the desires of my heart, give you the desires of your heart. That scripture has been misinterpreted sometimes and misused and abused. It’s not that God is gonna gonna give you everything you ask him in prayer. It’s actually the opposite. It’s actually that God will give you the desire to do. It’s not he will he will place the desire in your heart. So the prayer needs to be, Lord, let me want to desire what you desire me to desire. I know it’s bad English, but it’s good theology. That’s good. Right? So it is it is not me doing what he wants. It’s God placing the desire there so that my passion, my my purpose, and desires line up with God’s will for my life. Intrigate question. So lean into this, if you will. How do you hold this conversation in light of the previous panel on personhood? Is purpose static and discernible, or does purpose evolve and develop over time as our sense of personhood grows? I think the question is deep, but we answered it to simplify it very early on that as believers, we have a very central purpose that should be static, which is to live our entire lives for the glory of Jesus. And our personhood fundamentally should be static too. We are image bearers of God. How we mature through sanctification, right, means we’re gonna become less like our natural fleshly self and more like Jesus Christ. Right? And so and I think that we’re because God sees we think he sees the beginning to the end, but the Bible says he sees the end to the beginning. So he sees everything. Right? And so even though we have to go through a process of growing and changing, and this idea of purpose sometimes frustrates us or makes us nervous because we’re trying to discern it, we’re trying to figure out. I think people are well intentioned, right, when we’re we’re trying to discern our purpose. But to really kinda pull in what everyone else was just saying, I do wanna encourage us to just get busy living and serving and honoring God in whatever sphere of influence or context you are currently in, and do not stress out and worry about whether or not you are doing the very specific thing because we think Kronos, God thinks Kairos. Like, we we wanna be on God’s timing. And even if it feels like we’ve fallen and failing and floundering and not really sure of ourselves, If you stay on the move with God, he will hit you. Now, what do I mean by that? Like, God is a master archer and we are the target. And I was watching the Olympics When the archer was aiming for the target, the target stayed still. So it gave the archer an advantage. So even the person that wins gold, they only can win gold probably because it stays still. But God is such a master archer that he can hit a moving target. So if you are just moving, if you are just living, if you are just serving, God has impeccable aim. And if you’re going to the left and he needs you to bring come back to the right, he know how to hit you, to order your steps so you can move so you ain’t got to worry. Just live for the glory of God. And if you’re going down this way, if you’re studying neuroscience, God will say, I want him to preach. Come on. If you’re starting to teach and he says, I wanted to cancel, he know how to hit a moving target. So stop staying still, looking up in the sky, waiting for God to write your purpose in the clouds. Get moving. Love that. You need a organ to back down. I’m down. I think she can handle it even without the organ. Since then, this this segment has taken a deeply and intentional theological approach. So this next question, I hope, can help us discern even more of our purpose. Someone asked, what does it truly mean to be in the image of God or to bear his image as a black person in today’s culture? I will take the first fledgling stab at this. It means to interpret Jesus Christ in his reality and his context. A boy born in a ghetto, growing up in a ghetto, born in a barn, almost almost murdered before he draws his first breath, hated by just about everyone in power, trying to be canceled out by the actions that he’s did he did. But yet caught up by the amazing reality that was at work in him that made him realize that even death was not strong enough to defeat the liberating power that he brought to the world. What does it mean for personal? It means to model, to see Jesus as superhuman because god he emptied himself and then filled himself and then was filled and came to show us this is who you can be in this same context. Do not see me as an as an anomaly. See me as the firstborn. Do not see me as as something that is, you know, an outlier. See me as your big brother and see yourself as a part of this family of God that will transform the world. Love that. Okay. Y’all went there. What does it mean to bear the image of God as a black person? It’s complicated. Existentially, but it’s not complicated biblically. Right. Existentially black people have been dehumanized. And the same people who said that we were less than a person, held Bibles. Mhmm. So their interpretation of scripture was that a black person is less than. See, we were three fifths of a person. You look at scripture, how they how they manipulated the curse of of of Cain. They did a lot in script with scripture to manipulate it so that they could. There was throughout church history there were moments where, they they would they would not baptize black people. Because the black type to baptize a black person means they’ve been made whole. To be made whole Right. Means you have to now give me dignity, value, and esteem. So the image of God, the the there’s there’s I think I mentioned this. There’s a Hebrew word that’s that’s selem which means represent. We all represent as God as image bearers throughout the earth. There’s another, Hebrew word in Genesis called damut. That particular word means his likeness. We’re not we’re not God. Be careful. I know the culture would tell you that, but you ain’t God. Right? It’s very careful, but we there are certain things we can do that God has given us the ability to do because we bear his image. Like we like a dog can’t do what we do. We go see animals at a zoo or a safari. Right? We are we are made different. God made us intelligently. We look at the image of God. Here’s the issue. In the in the garden, the image of God was not destroyed, but it was distorted. So when you look through our scripture, God’s plan is to redeem the image of God. We struggle as black people to understand what redeeming the image of God is because unfortunately, our our our white Christians, you know, use the Bible to justify slavery. Right? The the Bible that that this is literally you can go to them using my ear. It’s a slave Bible. It’s like a pamphlet. So when you look at the image of God, it was distorted in such a way that black people didn’t realize that they used it to distort us. Now, the fact is we are all, every person, no matter what your race or ethnicity, we’re all created in in the image of God. And because we are all created in the image of God, we’re all worthy of dignity, esteem, and value, and we can never let anybody take it away from you. Whether you’re black, Asian, a Latino, white, we’re all created in image of God, but our history has caused us to ask questions like this. Because the the the society we live in and what biblical history has done to us, we’ve never felt like we were. So again, the question to you is, you are I don’t I don’t know who asked the question, but you are black and you are made in the image of God. And I’ll let anybody ever tell you anything less than that because God sees you and you’re beautifully and wonderfully made. And we are gonna leave it at that. Can we, acknowledge and celebrate our panelists, please? Come on. A little louder than that. A little louder, louder, louder. There we go. God bless you and thank you. Great job.