TaNeisha McGee: Hello. Welcome to the Jude three Project podcast. I’m your host, Lisa Fields. I’m the founder of the Jude three Project.
Lisa Fields: How’s everybody doing? Hope you all had a wonderful lunch. Really excited for this conversation. And because time is is not on our side, we wanna go ahead and and and get started. My name is Steven Harris. I currently serve, at Georgetown University, out of the Center on Faith and Justice. I’m also, serving at Harvard as a teaching fellow and a doctoral student there. So I divide my time between DC area and Boston, but really delighted to be moderating this conversation and learn from the wisdom, from my distinguished panelists. And I’m gonna have each of them introduce themselves, and then we’re gonna have a conversation. And, hopefully, this will turn into a dialogical experience where we field questions from you about this very important and critical topic. So I’m gonna start to my far left with Justin. Tell us who you are, brother, what you do, and we’ll come down this way.
Steven Harris: Sure. I’m Justin Giboney. I am the president of the and campaign, which is a Christian civic organization.
TaNeisha McGee: My name is Trinea McGee. I’m a Connecticut state representative. I represent the 1 16th West Haven, Connecticut.
Justin Giboney: Good afternoon. My name is Leah Daughtry. I am the presiding prelate of the House of the Lord Churches. I’m also a political strategist and an author.
Dr. Leah Daughtry: Michael McBride. I am the pastor of the Wade Church in Berkeley, California. Also serve as one of the cofounders of the Black Church PAC with Bishop Leah and the executive director of Live for USA, which is a national network to end gun violence and mass incarceration of people of color in The United States. Great. Great. Well, thank you all for being here.
Lisa Fields: As you can imagine, it’s a huge topic, and there’s a number of different directions we could go. And so, again, hopefully, your questions will perhaps gesture towards some of those so you can go ahead and start thinking about questions you have as this conversation unfolds. But a good place to start, I think a legitimate place to start, is is really situating ourselves in relationship to the title of the panel itself. Faith’s relationship with politics or religion and politics. So we’re we’re in DC, nation’s capital in the backdrop that optically is meant to represent the people ruling Christianity in particular, religion in general. Christianity in particular and its relationship to our current political moment, the country’s history, the country’s political history is very much so at the forefront of discourse, right now. It’s been for a season. And I’m sensing a lot of things and perhaps you are too. Anger, fatigue, exhaustion, fear, anxiety. How do you and your conversations with other Christians, with other, individuals, yourself working it out, what is the the the the role of faith and its relationship to politics? What are you commending? How do you help people to a healthier position? Faith, how does my faith how am I situating myself alongside this political moment, politics in general? What paradigm are you offering people, today? And everybody’s gonna answer this question, so anybody can start.
Steven Harris: I guess I can start. I think for the Christian, when you enter into the the conversation about politics, the first thing I would say is don’t separate that from your faith. Right? Don’t separate who you are from the public square, from the things that you stand on, from the things that you believe. And so what I think that means in in practice is trying to make sure that we represent the whole council of God, not just the parts that conservatives and republicans are okay with, not just the part that democrats are okay with, the whole council of God. Because we’re in a time, especially with this election cycle going up, I think there’s chances that we could have political violence going on. Well, we need to be very clear about what we believe. We need to have a sense of urgency, but we also need to recall the legacy of the black church engagement, which engaged those things with tenacity and grace. To say that I can tenaciously attack poverty and the housing issues that we have and and voter rights conversations, but also have a level of grace that allows me to be constructive within those conversations, that allows me to listen to people within those conversations. And so I think we need to have that synergy of both of those, which we have proof of concept from the black church tradition in order to engage in a way that’s actually gonna help us help other people, and we need to lead, not just follow behind one party or the other.
TaNeisha McGee: I think, as someone who was called to the political sphere, my background’s in the arts. I started acting when I was a little girl, and I went to college for acting. So I did not know I would be in politics. It was not a dream of mine. It was not anything I even knew to pray for. I just wanted god’s will to be done over my life. And I’d say I have a lot of conversations with gen z and millennials, and the conversation around faith and politics very much so intersect. Young people are walking away from the faith or their churches. Young people are walking away from their parties. The day of you are young, you’re a woman, you’re black, you have to register this way, Those days are over. The day of, you know, this is the sort of church you need to go to or this is the sort of environment that you need to be in, those days are truly over. So I really believe, one, being a type and shadow that God put me in this space after, someone had after the former representative had embezzled tons of money. It opened up the door for me to be in this space. And the one thing that people truly wanted when I was going door to door was they wanted honesty, they wanted truth, and and they wanted hope. And those are my my core values as a believer. Honesty, truth, and hope. And so oftentimes in this political space, but just like also I think I’ve we’ve many of us have experienced this in the kingdom of God. I don’t necessarily fit in, but but being in that space and being a vocal point for so many millennials and Gen z who I know are completely fed up with politics, are completely fed up with party, are completely fed up with, you know, some of the things that they’ve experienced even in church. One of the common questions I get is, I don’t like either candidate. Who am I, you know, going to support? This party has failed my community. My community is still impoverished. My community looked the same way it did thirty years ago. And so I believe that God oftentimes has to put people in certain positions of authority, which he really truly controls all spheres of authority, both the natural, the heavenly realm, and the earthly realm. And so I really believe when when I took this space in office, that it was for young people to see a young black woman who loves Christ but also understands how my faith must coincide with, the way I view policy or I will be implementing laws that I know, will negatively impact people and hurt people. And that’s oftentimes why I don’t fit in. Because sometimes one party is right and sometimes the other party is right. And I’ve learned that, you know, the truth is the truth no matter where it comes from. And so I I really do believe, that that God is raising up young people in the political space. But in order to do that, he’s calling other young people from whatever spaces they’re in, and he’s placing them in the political space on both sides of the aisle, to encourage young people to be encouraged, to have faith, hope, trust, and and to be empowered by his love.
Lisa Fields: Thank you for that. Amen. Bishop.
Justin Giboney: Thank you. I want to echo much of what my colleagues have already talked about. Our faith is really an expression of our values and so when we come to the political sphere and I want to qualify by that by saying the electoral political sphere because there’s politics everywhere. There’s politics in our workplaces, in our homes, in our churches. There’s politics that we regularly engage in without a second thought. And but when it comes to electoral politics, then we wanna start to qualify whether we should or should not be engaged. And I think that is an honest conversation we need to have with ourselves about what we mean when we say, I don’t want to be engaged in politics but you go on the desk you have at your office is a political decision that somebody made. It’s true. So if our faith is an expression of our values then what my call is as a Christian is to say where do my values best align? There is no perfect party, there is no perfect candidate, Jesus is not on the ballot, you’re choosing somebody and sometimes you’re choosing the lesser of two evils, sometimes you’re choosing between the devil and the deep blue sea. But if, if I want to see my values enacted in the earth in this country where I live then I need to be actively engaged in seeing those values come to life. And I want to echo my sister it’s about love, it’s about compassion, it’s about, how we care for each other, how we see each other, how we value each other, and what are the policies that I want to advocate for, that I want to press for, that I want to see in the candidates that mirror those or most closely align with how I feel. You’re not going to find perfection in I can’t get along with my own self sometime. I disagree with my parents sometimes doesn’t mean I don’t love them but sometimes you’re not going to find anybody that is perfectly aligned but who is most? What are the policies that are most aligned? And then I believe that I’m called as a Christian to help to bring about change in the world to help the world more closely mirror the reign of God. What’s going to help me do that? That’s how I understand my role and how I work and I’ve been chief of staff of the party of the Democratic party and some things some meetings I couldn’t go to because I didn’t agree. But I agreed more with this than I agreed with that. So I absented myself from some things because it was not in alignment with my values. But that didn’t mean I was quitting because I could do more good as chief of staff of the party than I could standing outside. So I think for us as Christians, we the purity test that we often like to apply to things does not neatly fit in any political situation whether that politics is in your workplace, in your home, in your church or at the ballot box.
Dr. Leah Daughtry: I’m I’m appreciative for being invited to, such auspicious meeting of these minds. I I I, I I will say that when Jesus taught the disciples to pray, he he had a, a clause in the prayer. Our father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Which is for me a mandate
Lisa Fields: about stewardship.
Dr. Leah Daughtry: Stewardship of creation, stewardship of all that God has placed in our hands. Politics is one act of stewardship among many that definitely should not be divorced from our faith but politics can can also become a weapon. Often manipulated by people who claim to share the same faith. And so I do believe that given the political climate and what is at stake in this country, we ought not act as if we have, you know, equivalent political choices in a moment where crystal fascism, Christian nationalists who emerge out of a consistent unbroken lineage of white supremacy and anti black racism are trying to seize power and use the same faith that some of us are familiar with. I do believe that the gift of the black church historically has been to be a catalyzing agent within The United States Of America to expand inclusion and freedom for everybody. Starting out of the black experience. And it was not always a kumbaya process. You know, the AMEs were an abolitionist religion. Meaning, they were created, they emerged with a sensibility. Bishops were literally abolitionist bishops. Going into conflict with their white counterparts who were claiming to be Christian but were okay with slavery. The civil rights era were Baptists, many, many Baptists who were publicly pushing back against systemic and structural racism, often against other white folk who claim to be Christian. So, there is, I think, an important conversation we should have around discernment when we’re talking about faith and politics but there is also, I think, a conversation we need to have about power and whose Christian faith or whose version of Christian faith are we talking about when we’re talking about the way in which faith relates to politics. I wanna suggest that not all Christian faith in The United States Of America is the same. Amen. In Jesus’ name.
Lisa Fields: Amen. Now, that gets us to, because you all everyone has mentioned the language of of of ethics, morality, a particular kind of vision, and how this these claims are contested. Right? The Christianity’s different iterations. So I wanna faith is informing political engagement for specific ends. We don’t have to give full definition of what those ends look like, but help us think about the legitimacy of our moral and ethical imagination influencing our political engagement when, whether it’s another person of the same, faith tradition or another worldview, has other ethical and moral imaginations that are influencing. How do we how do you how do you strive through that? One one of my friends, he he calls the civic space a battleground of gods, That we’re invoking different moralities and ethical imaginations. This is these are different gods. And what you what you brought up, Rev, is oftentimes contestation over the same god about what that looks what that vision looks like in the public square. So how do we think about moral and ethical vision influencing our political engagement when that moral and ethical vision is not agreed upon, is contested, even internally amongst amongst faith traditions in our sense, Christianity in particular?
Dr. Leah Daughtry: Well, I I I’ll just say, you know, I’m a fourth generation holiness apostolic Pentecostal, which just means that we do speak in tongues. We do roll on the floor, swing from the chandeliers. And on a good Sunday, we levitate. Somebody say amen, right? Amen. In my apostolic Pentecostal tradition growing up, many of you in this room would not be saved. Just, you know, back in the day when, you know, we had the intra black church wars. Now, we all get along a little bit better. And I often tell people, if we can’t even agree on some of these matters inside our own tradition, how is it that we want to go out into a pluralistic multi religious context and attempt to legislate to non Christians a Christian worldview. That is an act of violence, I would say. Right? And so the question I always am wrestling with is how then can what I believe be a source of ethical behaviors that are enacted in the public square that literally bring life to all of creation in as much as I can within the power I have and can reduce the amount of harm that vulnerable people and populations and the environment experience because of the presence of fallen human beings. And I think that for me, I do believe that we ought to be the most peaceful brand of human beings in the world and trust that the God we serve will literally you know take care of some of the contestations that so many Christians seem to want to take into the battlefield and have these battlegrounds of the Gods. I don’t think God is asking you to fight for god. God can fight for god’s self. At least, I think he has been for quite some time.
Steven Harris: Yeah. I would agree. I think anytime that we’re imposing our beliefs on others and saying, because the Bible said this, you have to live by this. I think it’s wrong. Number one, in a pluralistic society, it’s anti democratic. Right? That’s not how democracies work. But I don’t even know that it’s Christ like or biblical to impose those things on people. You know? Our our faith, you don’t impose it on people. People have to accept it for themselves. Right? And so I think we do have to think through that. But at the same time, I would say one that just because sometimes in the church we had too high standards, doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t have any standards. Right? So we have to keep that in mind. But when it comes to legislating morality, I would also say that it’s hard to avoid too. Because if you think about it, laws like against murder, that’s that’s a moral. Right? Laws against theft, laws against, statutory rape. Those are morals that people are upholding. That at some point you say, We do have to agree on something. Now the anarchist might say, you can’t force me to do that because you’re imposing that on me right now. But you can’t have a functional society unless that society has a set of agreed upon morals, values, whatever you want to call it, that they’re saying this is the minimum that we have to hold people to. Otherwise, we do not have structure. And as Christians, we serve a God of order. We need order in order to have justice. So we can’t get away from, you know, we don’t say because the Bible says thou shall not kill, we shouldn’t have any laws against murder. Since the Bible says thou shall not steal, we shouldn’t have any laws against theft. No. We’re always going to be in certain of those. It’s the process that we go through. So I can’t just say the Bible says this, therefore you have to do it. I have to be able to able to articulate things in a way where people see the practical value for everybody. And too often, I think it’s to your point, too often, especially on, the more conservative side, we just said because the Bible said it you must abide by it and didn’t take the time to really even articulate why that’s of benefit to other people, and not all our holiness standards are gonna be things that should be legislated. But I wanna walk away from the idea that no morality can be legislated. Every law that is on the books comes from a value system. It can’t be avoided that it’s from a value system. The quest the harder question we have to ask is, is my value that I believe from my faith something that I can articulate that better society in general? And I think that that question is a little a little more complicated, but that’s the way that I think Christians need to look at it.
TaNeisha McGee: And if I could just Please go ahead. Okay. If I can just jump in briefly. I really truly believe that everyone legislates their research, their experiences, their community, their district, but I really truly see people legislate what they are inspired by, whether that is their faith or their favorite film, their cult classic or their lack of faith or their disdain for faith. I see people legislate what they’re inspired by. When legislation has gone down in this country that we know are targets toward the black community, we protest because we know at the core which which what was legislated was evilness. But I oftentimes think before we pledge of allegiance in the capital, a preacher, a priest, or someone of a spiritual faith, and usually they usually they are a, believer, they pray, everyone is quiet, we all come subject to what’s being prayed, and then the pastor priest person says, in Jesus’ name. And a good amount of us say amen. Because in that one moment, everyone wants what is being shifted in the atmosphere. Because everyone knows that the job that we’re doing is crazy. And so they need some form of peace. Even if they don’t identify it as peace, they want some form of calmness, zen, namaste, whatever you say or believe. Right? Because we have different beliefs and faiths and and desires and goals, especially in the political space, but we all want that. And in unity, there’s strength. And so I feel that across the chamber before we are about to go into an intense debate. When I jumped into the political space, I had a really intense desire to study that the holy spirit gave me to study women in the bible. And I think of Shipra and Puah when pharaoh told them, the Hebrew babies are growing, the population is growing, get rid of them. They were like, we are going above religious monarchy and we fear the Lord. And for that, we will not kill these babies. We will let them live. And when pharaoh when they went back before pharaoh, it was Puah, which their names mean I I I’m sorry. I forgot what their names mean. They have a powerful name. One’s name means push, actually, and they were both midwives. And so as they stood back before pharaoh, the very smart excuse came up that they’re just growing too much. And therefore, we can’t control their births. There are thousands upon thousands. There we couldn’t sustain them. They’re they’re double, triple times over. And so there are times where God calls me to stand for or against a piece of legislation, and it is inspired by the Holy Ghost. And that is one of the reasons entirely why he put me there. But also, because I really do believe that, neither party has a monopoly on Christ, that sometimes people forget that Democrats are Christian. And so in this space, with a lot of my very liberal progressive colleagues, I have to kinda remind them that this party is made up of a lot of believers as well. And we may not always see eye to eye on issues, but you are inspired by what I know you do, and I’m I’m inspired by my faith. And and and there will be times, I believe, where God will encourage you to make an informative vote. And it might be against your flesh, but but, but spiritually, because he control controls all these realms of authority, he has all authority and all say. And that includes the positions that we hold in political power and even your informative vote.
Lisa Fields: Do you wanna call on, are you? Nope. I wanna get your get your thoughts in. Absolutely.
Justin Giboney: So, like pastor Mike, I am a holiness Pentecostal. I’m a fifth generation pastor. We’ve been Pentecostal a very long time. And in fact, that’s how we met because he and I would be the only Pentecostal holiness people in in the room. Say sanctify, fill with the Holy Ghost on my way to see the soon coming king, all of that. So, when you talk about the battleground of gods, that’s really interesting terminology to me because I think what we have to accept is that while we may call the higher being God, our gods are different. Our gods are not always the same. And we saw that trace it back in this country to slavery. The slave master called on a god and the god of their understanding made slavery legal because people of color, black people were not human. They didn’t consider black people to be made in the image of God. They were Christians. They went to church every Sunday. When I was in Ghana two years ago there’s a whole there is a church at the place where they were holding the Africans. It was the most disconcerting thing ever to walk from this church and walk not a 100 yards to where they were holding Africans to be sent across the water. Every Sunday, they were in church. That’s not the God of my understanding that says every life is valued and that I’ve made you in the image and the likeness of my own self and therefore your life has value. That’s a different and I think we have to acknowledge and as much as we want as Christians to say we all worshiping the same God, the God of our understandings may be different. And we have to acknowledge that or else we seek alignment with the enemy. Right? I’m not worshiping the same God that slave master worshiped. We got two different understandings of who God is. Amen somebody. And so coming forward to the modern day where I think that the people of faith have to say is where do I find the under my God’s understanding my understanding of God in the public square? Where is life valued and we can talk about when life begins and when it doesn’t but the life that’s got two legs and walking every day and needs meals and needs shelter and needs food where do I find the people who believe that each and every one of us is made in the image of God and therefore our needs are holy and must be addressed as holy? And where do I find people who are calling everybody who say Lord Lord is not calling on the same Lord. Where do I find people who are saying Lord Lord but they don’t want my people to have anything to eat And they’re not concerned that the water is dirty. And they’re not concerned that people are safe and unsafe. And they’re not concerned about anything that has to do with the bodily needs of people, the children. Is is that the same God? I can’t align with that. And so in that case I said, I love you my brother but we can’t we’re not aligned on this because you don’t see me as made in the image of God enough to make decisions for my own life, to require of clean food air and water. You don’t see me as worthy of these things. And so therefore you don’t see my God’s own image imprinted on my life. You’ve devalued me and in that way you sin.
Lisa Fields: I wanna raise this next question. But before I do, because I think we’re gonna cross this mark, remember to, curate the questions with the QR code. So as you’re thinking about things you wanna ask, we have a little bit of time left, but the balance of our time will be, reserved for q and a. So, reminder to do that. I wanna stay a little bit here for a second because I wanna tease this out a little bit. A lot of us, we’re in congregations. And when when you we come upon a season where, like we’re coming upon now, the language of what’s at stake and how or what should be the most pressing and how the faith should be applied in this particular issue, that language emerges and it and it heightens. Advice for individuals as they’re having these conversations in their churches, in their communities, amongst their the the the community of faith who are parsing things differently. They you might be in con in congregations where people are a pool of different political parties, different political opinions. How do we proceed in relationally in that? How do we how do we work that out? We’re going back to congregations where everybody’s not gonna see it the same way, and even if I kinda see it the same way, I kinda don’t. What how do we proceed in that in that kind of environment that I believe will just only heighten from this point at least going through the end of twenty four perhaps beyond. I don’t know. We might be in another country. But but how do we how do we how do we advance in that context? What do you how do you encourage Christians to relate to other individuals who see things totally different drastically different than you do?
Steven Harris: That’s a good question. The first thing I first thing we have to do because I I agree what the sister said. We we can’t assume that everybody that has the name Christian next to the name or that label they attach that to themselves, they got a Jesus piece on, is actually a Christian. But what I wanna keep us from doing is assuming that that line is drawn across a partisan line. Mhmm. That’s right. Maybe it is sometimes. Let’s not make that assumption. Let’s use the discernment to say, let me look at each case and evaluate that in an impartial way because I think what we run into a lot of times is partiality. Mhmm. The other thing we run into is if we make this a battle between good versus evil, we make a couple mistakes. One is we miss the evil within us and on our side. Right? We say it’s they’re so bad that I have to ignore the evil coming from me or coming from the people that represent me in order to fully be in opposition to them. That’s not Christian. The other thing we miss is opportunities to work with and see the virtue from the other side. One thing I talk about a lot is opposition centered politics. A lot of the politics we do today is just based on us not liking the other side. And so we actually form opinions to be in opposition to somebody. Can we see the problem with that? As Christians, we have to form our positions based on the love and truth of God. If I’m basing my position on they are so bad, if I agree with them, I must be wrong, that I’m actually not thinking through the conversation. So the first thing I would say is we engage people who differ from us. You don’t have to hold any punches necessarily. You don’t have to act like they’re right or create some false equivalence because in many cases, the two sides are not equivalent, and we need to be honest about that too. But we do have to we do have to hear them out. And one way you know that you’re hearing somebody out, and and the evangelist Lisa Fields once said that, listening is a a form of love, and I think it really is. But one way you know you’re hearing other people out is if you can explain the good they’re trying to get at. So I may have a different view than you on an issue. I can’t say that I really know your your view unless I know the good you’re trying to get at. Now I may disagree with your conclusion, but I can’t really critique you unless I know that good. The other thing that I would practice as we go into these conversations is building relationships. You’re not trying to win when you first have a conversation with somebody in your church and you see you disagree. Try to hear them out and see what they have to say, then be able to list at least five of the things that your side gets wrong. And maybe in your conversation when you admit you get those things wrong, you diffuse the conversation so we can have a conversation in love and not one that’s adversarial when one side is trying to beat the other.
TaNeisha McGee: Anybody else on this? I think the conversation first begin with God, and especially being a millennial, being a young millennial. I’m, like, almost a Gen z. But the conversation first for me begin with, begin with god, especially with engaging a generation who asks the most different question. Generations before asked what was true, what is honest. This generation asked what is beautiful. And so oftentimes, I see myself engaging with Gen z’s, with young people on what sneakers we just got, what sneakers just dropped, you know, where are our favorite places to shop, what recommendations, and it sort of segues into, things around politics. I say this because I really do think sometimes we expect things from people we don’t have relationships with. And so I really started to build relationships with the young people within my community to understand their concerns around climate change. But I’d say there’s so many conspiracy theories out there, and I truly believe that people are seeking the truth. And so, one of the sisters said earlier, the influence of TikTok. And so I began to engage in conversations with young people, around faith and politics, honestly, off the basis of a lot of what they’re seeing on social media, what social media is teaching them and how they’re engaging in social media. 86% of young people, I think it’s 56% of teens teen girls are always on social media, and 48% of boys are always on social media. 86 to 87% in total spend majority of their time, on social media. And so that’s sort of how I’m able to navigate spaces and discussions with them. But I say a conversation with God first because I remember sitting down with elders, and we were going into a space of young people who wanted to get involved with politics. There’s a lot of young people who wanna get involved with politics. The day of not talking about religion or politics is over. So encourage young people to engage in politics. It might not be an elected office. It might be the treasurer of a campaign. It might be social media coordinator. Young people are getting involved in politics. But I remember talking to the group of elders, and I said, you cannot go in there and say you have to vote this way. You cannot go in there and say you have to vote that way. It’s not it does not work like that anymore. You have to begin to one bridge build and find ways to connect with them on things that they enjoy. We went in the room. The conversation became vote this way because. The first question was, why should I vote that way? And so I true I I do believe that we are, entering a season and a space where we have to prove ourselves to be worthy, especially with young people, build trust, build relationship, and then maybe sort of expect greater outcomes when it comes to policy and and and politics and faith.
Justin Giboney: Anybody on this? Yeah. I would I would say if you’re having conversations in your in our congregations or in our social clubs about, faith, values, politics, It all has to start from a premise of love and that you have, even at least in theory, love for the person you’re having a conversation with. That you and that you see them, that you hear them and that you can relate to them even if they are not the same as you. I often say, you don’t have to be just like me to be just like me. We all want the same things. We want a life where we can grow and thrive, we want our children to grow and thrive, we want to be safe, we want to be healthy, we want the same things how we get there may be different but in having these conversations in congregations or in the spaces that we are let’s start from a place of we all want the same thing. So tell me what you’re trying to get to and how you’re seeing the issue. Hear me when I say how I’m seeing the issue, we may be more aligned than we think we are But if you come with your heels in the sand nobody’s gonna hear you. But how can we try to and then I think also for us as Christians we sometimes dig into our positions and I tell you there’s a lot of things I don’t understand about what’s happening in society. But you know what I’m not always called to understand I’m first called to love. So how about let me start from love and then I can grow to understanding later but if I can’t even come to you out of a hey brother what’s going on in your world? What are you striving for? What do you hope for? What do you I can’t get to the rest of a clear conversation about about anything else and so that’s why I say start from the premise of love that we are all made in the image of God, that we all have desires, wants and needs and those desires, wants, and needs are unless they’re illegal they’re valid. And then let’s try to grow a relationship and a conversation from that baseline premise which is love in another in in in another way we might say is God.
Lisa Fields: We have anything on this? We’ll okay. Let’s, we got a few more minutes left. Maybe I can get this in. There’s a million directions we could go in. Let’s do this one. So this this is all very helpful. I’m I’m I’m I’m thinking about language we employ where we’re invoking the language of faith, particularly in in conversations around politics and around what’s at stake. Help us help us think through or how you think about and I think we will see this language. We already are seeing it, and we will continue to see it. How we bind people’s consciences, the Christian conscience, to particular positions as being the Christian position on x y and z. Whether it’s a vote for a candidate, particular view on an issue, morality and ethical position, questions about gender and sexuality and abortion, reproductive rights, all these things. How we employ the language and the demands of faith on these issues. How do we think through that? And how are we adjudicating that? And and who who should be adjudicating that? Because I think oftentimes we are we are appealing to the state in order to sanction a particular theological view. Right? And we’re invoking the language of faith to do that. Is that the space for that? And if so, why? If why not? Then where where are we working that out? And are there some things where we’re at an impasse at? Right? But that language, real Christians do x. That’s that’s just gonna heighten, I think, from here on out until this season is over. And and perhaps many many people sitting here have have had that language thrown at them or perhaps you’ve employed that language. Real Christians don’t do x. Real Christians do x with regard to politics. Help us think through the wisdom in that.
Dr. Leah Daughtry: Well, one of one of our guiding principles in our organizing work is the people most directly impacted by an issue deserve to be kept at the center of that issue by hearing their voice and creating space for their agency to carry the day. You know, we’ve been doing a lot of work on criminal justice reform, we do a lot of work around ending gun violence in black and brown communities. And what’s so fascinating about that those conversations, and and I could expand that to our LGBTQ siblings and, women’s productive rights, is there are a lot of people trying to make decisions about people’s experience in the world, and they’ve literally not had a conversation with those people directly impacted by it. And they have no desire to be proximal to folks. They don’t have the desire to literally sit in the difficulty and the complexity of their experience. And so, their response is a response that actually makes the experience of that individual even more difficult because they’re holding on to an ideal that many times is emerging out of their own kind of religious, doctrinal, theological sensibility. And so, I think it’s really important, for us to make sure that if we’re gonna have a conversation about the litmus test, everybody has a different litmus test about what it means to be a faithful Christian in the political space. Some people’s litmus test is around abortion. Some people’s litmus test is around gay marriage. Some people’s litmus test is around community safety, some people’s litmus test is around a number of different things and yet, if we’re not willing to sit with people as they are bearing the weight of our decisions, then it is to me another act of political violence that we ought not invoke upon our own community knowing that one of the most difficult things in this country is to be a black human being. Regardless of where you are in the social location of this country. So I think the black church should continue to make sure that our call is to continue to hold dear the experiences of black people and allow their voices, particularly if I am adjacent to an issue, allow their voices to carry more weight than the voice of someone who is not necessarily directly impacted by that said issue.
Steven Harris: Mhmm. Yeah. I mean, one place where this definitely showed up, and we can just say it, is the issue of abortion when it came to Trump. Mhmm. You had people who would allow him to say anything, to treat any people any kind of way. He he said himself, I can get away with murder because if he gets in office, he’s going to give us a supreme court and he’s gonna do this, this, and this. The ends justify the means is not part of the gospel. And I would really encourage everyone to be careful about being a one issue voter Because what you have to realize is your strongest beliefs you should have strong beliefs, but your strongest beliefs can be used to manipulate you. And if all I have to do is say I’m gonna support you on this one area but I’m a treat immigrants this way, I’m a do all this other stuff and that’s all you care about, that’s problematic. And we saw too many Christians do that, and it’s not right, and we need to call that out in no uncertain terms. The same thing goes sometimes for identity politics. Mhmm. We know that representation matters. If you’re not at the table, then chances are your interest is not being represented. Black people have seen that forever. But we also must keep in mind that somebody can bring somebody to the table on the left or the right that looks like you that’s representing their interest. So we cannot the content of character still matters, and that’s the and that’s one of the points I wanna bring up just in politics in in general. There’s this tension that we have to engage. There’s the tension that we know representation matters, but there’s also the tension to say your substance matters. And I think in too many instances, we push away the substance either for one principle or what they say they are representing. And if we’re gonna hold people accountable because as we heard earlier, even politics outside of your everyday, your your politics, your public witness is more than your vote. Right? It’s what you do leading up to your vote. How are you engaged? How are you pushing certain platforms? And it’s how you hold people accountable after your vote. And if we’re gonna put one issue, one identity at the top, what I can guarantee you is somebody’s gonna use that to manipulate and exploit you, whether it’s race or whether it’s, this, you know, or whether it’s the abortion conversation. That’s one thing we’ve seen, and that’s one thing we know.
TaNeisha McGee: Just really quickly because I know we’re going into questions, but I wanna share this perspective. In December 2021, I was elected in a special election. And I had done a lot of work prior, with my women’s the women’s ministry at my church at a pregnancy center that’s predominantly the first ever Latina ran, functioning pregnancy center. And I knew the work that the pregnancy pregnancy center was doing, providing, all sorts of dad support classes, parenting classes, formula, diapers. I knew this because I sent friends there. I watched friends go there. I’ve seen young women who were counseled, young women who had no education, no support, no family, no resources. And so when I got elected, the very first article that went viral of me is is Connecticut big tent enough to support an anti abortion democrat? I stand on a consistent life ethic from the womb to the tomb. I like to call myself a whole life democrat. I am against euthanasia, the death penalty, mass incarceration, police brutality, prison pipeline, abortion. When I got elected to office, I knew that I had to be at the forefront of changing the narrative around how the media wanted to depict me. No shade to homegirl, but, like, I’m not Candace Owens. Right? And so I wanted to make sure that I was in front saying you know, I probably shouldn’t have called out names, but, you know, I wanted to make sure after this article went viral and the New York Times is calling and Washington Post and all these big dogs are calling, I wanted to make sure that I was at the forefront saying it’s not only about protecting life, but sustaining life. And that we have to make sure that we’re meeting the needs of people in all communities. Because what I see yes. 73% of women tell us that they would prefer to parent if they had resources, but I know for sure that women don’t have any choices except for the abortion choice. And that if they did have other choices, they would choose life. And that oftentimes, parenting becomes a tool of privilege and elitism by which you can only parent if you can afford the child. And so my advocacy for racial justice and civil rights opened up the door for me to stand on a very strong platform of life, one that God gave me. And I’ve been able to be in spaces alongside my colleagues and engage in all sorts of discussions around this topic. I knew that I was not abortion full stop, and I knew the platform that I stood on as a, they like to say, pro life democrat. I say whole life, consistent life ethic, womb to the tune. It’s not only about protecting life, but sustaining life. What I see with topics like reproductive rights and even LGBTQ, especially within my community, the biggest concern is 69% of parents of color said that they’re concerned about what’s being implemented in their classrooms. I realize it’s not even that parents don’t necessarily want their kids to learn these things and then some don’t, but they wanna be at the forefront of these discussions. They want to talk to their children about these things. They don’t want these things implemented in their kids’ classrooms because a lot of what’s being implemented is not the truth, not on the base of society, but actually anatomy and science. I’m a teacher, so I know I work with kids. It’s just not my job to engage in these discussions. And in fact, statistics show us that a lot of teachers begin to sexually abuse their children by way of having personal conversations with them. So when I have a student says, miss, you got a boyfriend, miss? I’ll say, that’s not a discussion that you and I are gonna have. Miss, you you going on a date. That’s not a discussion that you and I are supposed to have. But that’s what I see really truly at the forefront of these two topics that I think are important. And we’ve made them to be about religion, but it’s actually the perimeter around what we believe is safe for kids to learn or not. It’s not even necessarily about religion. It’s about some form of boundaries around sexuality in general. You know? It’s it’s a it’s a boundary of safety. I saw on the news that there’s a curfew in DC for children so that they’re not harmed after hours. That means if something happens to you after hours, then you are outside of the bounds of my safety and my love. And that is the same that I see with with the pushback that I see of parents who are not only on one side, but they’re also on the other. And this also includes constituents and parents within the LGBTQ community that I have great discussions with that truly believe, okay. At some point, we have to keep these conversations from children or I wanna have that conversation with my child. Whether they are or not, you know, we gotta give parents some resources, but that’s really the what I see within my community.
Lisa Fields: Bishop, I wanna give you a chance to speak in here. And I if you Okay. Okay. Okay. We, I’m trying to consolidate. Y’all y’all are doing some y’all are doing a lot in the questions, and I appreciate that in the q and a, section of the app here. I wanna see if I can, consolidate some of them so we can get to the get to a number of them. We have a number of questions that that touch on. I have to activate one. Let me activate one. Where is it at? Oh, gosh. Where is it at? Okay. I’m a activate this one, but I’m a try to combine it with with something else. Alright. So this one says, think it’s active. Do you all see a question anywhere? All I see are lights. Y’all see a question? Okay. Why should we vote especially on a national level seeing that there has been no economic advancement in the black community for decades? And several other questions, dovetail with this one. Simply about the utility of of we’re talking about voting, one aspect of political engagement among many others that have been been mentioned. But about seeing particular solutions. Right? Seeing particular gains or particular effects of my political engagement and and the the disillusion that perhaps builds because of perhaps lack of seeing those things. How do we talk about one, not just the exercise of the vote, but the engagement, the continual engagement, the holding of accountability? How do we encourage people to see that the kinds of things that we’re talking about here occur that this is a sustained engagement. Right? And what do we do when we feel like we reach these moments of political engagement and we would exercise our vote or perhaps we do many things in addition to that. And the the benefits of what we have done do not accrue to the to the most vulnerable, the marginalized people who look like us. What do we do at that point? And what what are other ways in which we can affect the change that we wanna see? Anybody can answer that.
Justin Giboney: Well, I think our vote is about how we choose to engage in the political process or not. I would beg the premise of the question because I think just statistically, there have been economic improvements over the twenty years ago, black youth unemployment was 30%. Today, it’s in single digits. Something has shifted. We have the lowest black unemployment ever on record in the history of The United States since Reconstruction. Something has shifted. We have more black millionaires and a few billion, a couple of billionaires ever in the history. Something shifted. Now, we may not see it every day and the media doesn’t help because it consistently gives us a message of nothing’s changing, there’s been no progress. Black home ownership rises and now that doesn’t address the issue of what black, net, net wealth is and there’s always work to be done. And from and I think that’s just dealing with the vestiges of slavery, systemic racism, and some of these things are not going to be addressed until the country deals with the outcomes of systemic racism that creates these systems that keep us two rungs down. But I don’t think it’s true just as a matter of fact that nothing has changed. So, how do we continue to make change and to press for change? And this goes to something Justin said and and my sister said that voting has to be a lifestyle and not an event. So often we go to the polls, we vote for somebody and then we don’t see them, don’t talk to them, don’t show up, don’t ask them no questions till the next election day. It is the only job that we hire these people and then we never give them a performance evaluation. Now I always when I do these workshops with churches and other folks, if your elected official doesn’t know your name you’re not doing your job. Show up, be a pain in the so that when they see you coming, they say, oh lord. Here she come. Here he come. Wait a minute. I know he’s concerned about the schools. Let what’s my answer? What have I done? Because the we employ them and if they’re not producing, that’s not their fault, that’s our fault for not holding them accountable. Showing up on the door. I make sure I go, hello. I live at blah blah blah. I’m in your district. I voted for you or I didn’t vote for you. Here’s what I want to see you do because you work for me. And if I don’t do that and make what if Frederick Douglass says? Power concedes nothing without a demand. Never has and never will. If we want to make change, if we want to press advancement, if we want to deal with these issues around gun violence, around economic security, around safety, then we have to participate in the system. I worked on Capitol Hill when I was first starting. I was my first job and we would get letters work for a congressman. We would get letters from the district because you check and see. And what I found, he didn’t ask me to do this, I did this on my own, is that most of the people writing and asking for things were either not voting or not even registered to vote, but they had a list of things that they wanted or they were asking us for the wrong things. I’m in Congress, I can’t get you a light a light a stoplight on the corner, that’s not my thing. And so we have a responsibility and I’m I am by no means saying that elected officials don’t have responsibilities, but we as citizenry have a responsibility to understand how the government works that’s ruling over us, that’s making decisions about where our churches can be, whether we have tax exempt status in our church, what kind of food programs we can run, all of that. They’re making decisions about our lives and we choose we can’t choose to say I’m not gonna engage. I’m a just let them do I’m a just let the devil run wild and not say anything. We have a responsibility to show up and to say this is I’m calling you congressman because I need student loan forgiveness and I need you to vote on that and I’m a hold you accountable to that. If we’re not voting we have no say. They have no obligation to pay any attention to what we said because why you didn’t vote so you didn’t vote for me to get this paycheck or not. So I think we’ve really got to be more informed citizens, more informed Christians if we want to see the kingdom of God on earth, on earth as it is in heaven. The way to do that in this country, not every country but in this country is through the electoral politics process. And by not engaging, we are abdicating our ability to bring, to see heaven on earth.
Steven Harris: And I would just add to that. I think that was good. I I would just add to that you vote because things yeah. Things can get worse.
Justin Giboney: What?
Steven Harris: Y’all know that. Right? I mean, you you vote because somebody’s controlling the history curriculum that your kids are reading. Yeah. Are you going to concede that to them? Or somebody’s controlling the sexuality curriculum that your kids are receiving, and they may have an agenda. Or you have schools that I mean, you have certain, areas where a kid can almost get an abortion and not even tell their parents. That’s Connecticut. Are you not that’s Connecticut. Are you not going to you’re gonna concede that to somebody else? So although things are not where we want them to be, they could get worse and you never hand over those things to somebody else and give up. That’s quitting. But I do wanna speak into the frustration though Because while we may have some more millionaires, things like that, we also have people who are getting degrees that aren’t worth hardly anything. We have a generation where usually you think you can do better than your parents’ generation did. It doesn’t look like that’s gonna happen. It’s hard to buy a home because BlackRock is buying all the homes and we’re looking at the Senate and the Congress and they’re doing nothing about it. So I do wanna speak into that frustration and say things are not the way they should be. I’ve been working hard and the opportunity just isn’t there. That’s real, but it does not get fixed by you, checking out and copping out. We have to stay engaged.
Lisa Fields: Anyone else on this? I’m gonna activate another question. I just see lights. I’m gonna activate another question, and I’m gonna try to consolidate some in this. How do we vote for a party and not advance the wrongs of that party? Now that latter clause, not advance the wrongs of the party, is doing a lot of work. But what’s in that is, I think, a question and good work. I mean, I I I appreciate the question. What’s in that is, how do I view my part my political party identification or what is my vote saying about me and how do I distinguish myself as I engage politically? Because the assumption is, right, that that I’m I’m making the best choice that I can. All of me is not represented in this. How does that other part get represented? Right? How do I make that distinction? Should we identify with political parties? So that that’s another question somewhere in here. So how do I distinguish myself and all that I am I am about as I engage in this one medium of reflecting what I want to, you know, hope hope hope this world and the society would be? Anybody can understand.
Dr. Leah Daughtry: So I I often wonder who who are we talking to with with some of these questions. Because black voters are over, like, black women, maybe nine mid high nineties democratic voters. Yeah. Black men used to be low nineties. Now, you know, some of them are being won over to the, foolishness. So, I I I think black folks seem to I don’t know that this is something black folks are trying to figure out.
Lisa Fields: Can I footnote it then? Okay. No, go ahead. Keep going for a second. So,
Dr. Leah Daughtry: I do think that what we’re trying to figure out is, how do we ensure that our political power creates the outcomes for our communities that we want. And I do think sometimes there is a over obsession with national political races when the reality is most local That’s right. Races in your community are not partisan races. That’s right. Like, I think in many cities across the country, you don’t have to declare your party until you run for maybe a county seat. You know, I’m from The Bay and I often tell my progressive, you know, elected officials there that the worst conditions of the Bay Area are not because of Donald Trump. You know? We got some progressive folk who don’t like poor people. Right? And the way they govern demonstrates that. We got some black elected officials who don’t like black people. They despise black youth. They are willing to unleash a racist system of policing on black children as a way to solve some kind of issue of crime that has largely been proven through many kinds of studies that crime is a result of poverty. But they have the power to alleviate poverty but still do not when they have the power to do so. I often call it the powerlessness of the powerful. And so I do think it’s really important for us to to again be very clear about, you know, a couple things. The greatest block of voters in The United States Of America are non voters. The the highest proportion of votes demographically are black voters to democratic candidates. We’re not confused about party. I think we’re confused about power and governance and outcomes. And Angela Davis, I’ll close with just this quote, freedom is a constant struggle. It was not until the mid 1960s that black people were even allowed to be involved in the political process without the government’s or with the government’s protection against voter suppression, public account. We’re only sixty years in to literally having a level of full inclusion into this democracy. So I do think it’s very important for us to keep reminding ourselves again, you know, as black church people, our whole legacy as the black church in this country aside or along with making disciples has also been about ensuring we are protected from the violence, both legitimate and illegitimate, of the state and its vigilantes towards black people. We must not give that up for any reason. And I will say, you know, conversation about queer people and about women’s reproductive rights ought not be driven by white folk. Because black queer people deserve our protection. And if you’re a black queer person in a school and you have no one to talk to and you are given to suicide because you have people having an argument about you and your experience and there’s no black people there to protect their life and their agency and their choice that is a weapon of violence. I don’t care what a parent is saying. Some parents are not good for their own children. If they cannot see the humanity and appreciate that to be an adolescent in this age is so confusing. Children need love and they don’t need judgment. And most children will outlive some of their adolescent struggles if they have a community to love and embrace them. I’ll stop while I feel like I’m at.
Justin Giboney: I I and adjacent, Pastor Mike, and I agree with you, is inherent in the question is a belief that you must agree with everything that that party purports. That there is somehow this perfection that you think a political party ought to have, that you gotta agree with every, we don’t agree with everything in our own churches. Well, so why do we expect a level of perfection from a political you’re not going to perfectly align unless you a party of one and even then me myself and I don’t agree. So this is about who more closely mirrors your values which is where I started. What more closely mirrors what you want to see the society advance? What more closely aligns with the protections that Pastor Mike and Justin and and and sister city council person? I love this state legislator, I love that she’s an elected official, it’s just so cool. What more closely aligns but if you can if you’re looking for a perfect party that agrees with you about everything, start your own and you be in there by yourself because your family not gonna agree with you on everything. So this striving for this perfection in a political I don’t get it. I don’t get it because we don’t do that any place else in our lives. You go in Macy’s, you like that dress but not this dress. You don’t stop going to Macy’s because they got some styles. Like, they got plenty of style. I don’t understand. It’s like, where’s the rest of the cloth? I don’t get it. I’m holiness. You know, we we we, you know, listen. That don’t stop me from going to Macy’s because I don’t like some of the stuff. That’s right. Right? So we I think we gotta raise at the level of our political sophistication to to bring to politics what we bring to the rest of our lives. We’re not looking for perfection in any claim including a partner. So why are we looking for it from a Democrat Republican party?
TaNeisha McGee: Can I just say this? I’m sorry. You gotta And just really quickly, the way in which, like, God puts us in spaces, it’s oftentimes to even pull from people or you might have an unlikely ally. Right? But it’s it may be to pull from people that you may not have even known will help you get to where you need to be. So when I was running a special, because after I spoke on my stance, obviously, there was a whole industry that didn’t want didn’t want me in there. Right? So they make they make sure to mobilize to get me out. Didn’t work. Right? But it was interesting to go to a door and say, you only vote Republican because of this issue. You’ve been voting this way for forty years, and my opponent doesn’t believe the same way I do on life. So it seems like you’re gonna have to vote for the Democrat. And mind you, like, you know, I vote with my party probably I mean, my score is probably, like, 87%. I mean, it’s a good amount. Right? But almost probably 90. But I went to doors and I said, listen. This is where I stand on this issue and you do too. And we may even see this different. I really do believe we will see this differently, but this is my opponent’s belief. And I had tons and tons of emails that stated I hadn’t voted for a Democrat. This is the first time I voted for a Democrat. I have not voted for a Democrat in thirty years. Thank you. You know, whatever. And so the reason why I say that is because oftentimes, we want better, but we we don’t really wanna be a part of the solution of creating better and or being challenged, right, to either be a part of what’s better, what will help grow, or not grow because it just will not improve. And so, you know, like you stated earlier, all politics are truly local, and I learned that when I was on the council that it starts that it starts here. I was a delegate to my congresswoman, and it kinda goes all the way up. And so that’s where that’s where the foundation of who you want in office starts. And so if you believe that you should be at the table, you know, Shirley Chisholm says if they don’t let you at the table, bring a folding chair. If you don’t if you believe you should folding chair. Oh, wait. Wait. That’s what it say. Right? That’s what she said? I know. But folding chairs mean that’s something different today. Uh-oh.
Dr. Leah Daughtry: Bring that too. Bring that folding chair. You bring it. It’s a different chair. I’m telling my kids that was the Boston Tea Party.
TaNeisha McGee: No. Yes. Bring so bring you might have to really bring that folding chair. It’s the truth. No. It’s
Steven Harris: it’s it’s hidden very different. Oh, I didn’t even think, you know. Let me say this to you real talk. Because I I think the I wanna say the heart of the question was how if I choose a party, do I not get caught up representing everything that party represents. I think that was the heart of it. And one thing I would say is the example is right in front of you. I mean, this is somebody who has chosen a party, but when it comes to places where she disagrees, she’s not quiet about it. She speaks up. And honestly, Trenae, when people ask me what keeps me going, what gives me excitement, encouragement, it’s people like, it’s Trenae Because she gets it go ahead. She gets it from both sides. She stands 10 toes down on the gospel and loves and protects people she disagrees with. So any anybody we’ve talked about here that we should be protecting, she’s gonna protect them too. That doesn’t mean she has to agree, but she’s gonna protect them. So this is the example, I think, right in front of you of what I think the heart of the question was.
Dr. Leah Daughtry: You so much. Can I just can I also just say, I I do think fundamentalism in any form kills? And so I I do think it is really important for us to resist the need to be all or nothing about anything. I think we have to have discernment and the the work of ethics is about contextual and situational application of your values. And that is, I think, a huge legacy of the black church and I hope we we hold on to that, particularly in these most troubling times.
Lisa Fields: Alright. We’re gonna leave it. We’re running out of time. We’re gonna leave it at the folding chair in that comment. No. The last thing I wanna do, but and then we’ll close it out. Where can people go to find more about what you all are engaged in? If it’s a website, just how can people locate you, a Twitter handle or something, and then we’ll close it out. We’ll start here. You can follow us on,
Dr. Leah Daughtry: Twitter. I’m pastor mike underscore or livefreeusa,uh,.org. Glad to follow-up with you.
Justin Giboney: I I’m on social as my name at Leah Daughtry on Twitter, Facebook, threads, x, all of that. And in my organization, Power Rising, which is a gathering space by for and about black women, you can find us on all the socials at Power Rising. Great. You don’t Our website is powerizing.org.
Lisa Fields: Power you don’t call it Twitter anymore?
Justin Giboney: It’s in the x? It it is. Uh-huh. It is. X. Well, all the newspapers say x, formerly known as Twitter. I feel like I told my prince.
Lisa Fields: Right. Right.
TaNeisha McGee: My name on my personal, social media is Trenae McGee. My Instagram is official TD McGee. And my rep page is rep Trenae McGee. And if you wanna stay updated with my kids, I have an acting studio. It’s TDM acting studio just to see how well they’re growing in the arts.
Steven Harris: You can keep up with, what the Anne campaign’s doing at annecampaign.org
Lisa Fields: or listen to the Church Politics podcast. Will you join me in thanking our panel? Thank you.