Lisa Fields: Hello. Welcome to the Jew three Project podcast. I’m your host, Lisa Fields. I’m the founder of the Jew three Project. Well, thank you for watching another episode of the G3 Project Podcast. As always, I’m Lisa Fields, the founder of the G3 Project. And today, we’re continuing our series on my book, When Heroes Fall. And we have a very special guest who I’m very excited about. My friend, and I think of her as a mentor,
Dr. Cynthia James: to me, doctor Cynthia James. Glad to be here. I deserved intro, but thank you.
Lisa Fields: Doctor James, tell our audience a little bit about who you are.
Dr. Cynthia James: Oh, well, it’s, kind of a long path in history, but, trained as a university professor in psychologist in psychology and did research and taught at a number of universities, then went into ministry with the d min and combined it with the PhD, pastored three congregations, started several Christian schools, oversaw three different jurisdictions of pastors, which is probably most relevant to our topic today, and then retired, as an associate pastor here in South Dallas from the Potter’s House.
Lisa Fields: Yes. I I always call, doctor James
Dr. Cynthia James: when I’m in crisis. I call you other times too. Well, you have more crisis for you, but I enjoy the conversations. They’re great.
Lisa Fields: You help me navigate a lot of different things. We’re talking about the book When Heroes Fall. And you you knew about my journey of writing this book, I told you when I started beginning to write it. Why do you think this is such a relevant topic for today?
Dr. Cynthia James: I think it’s there’s been a vacuum. We without calling other authors, we see where the topic has been addressed in corporations, why they succeed or fail, why the leaders of great cop corporations, what they should do or not do. But I think in the church, we’ve skirted the issue and possibly because it goes to the core of who we are and our whole theological integrity and our identity. So there’s a great need for it. So I imagine there would be more opposition and adversity to actually opening up this topic and going through the portal. Mhmm.
Lisa Fields: As you you talked about your experience of leading congregations, being over pastors, what have you seen when it comes to this topic that people because I think when we talk about the next generation, I hear all the time, like, the church is full of hypocrites or they don’t they don’t do anything when things happen. What what do you think has been the one of the primary challenges with the church around this topic?
Dr. Cynthia James: I think depending on what segment of the population or congregation you talk to, we get different responses. There are those who feel the church has been negligent, and others feel to really explore it, it’s a matter of betrayal. Mhmm. That it’s kind of the inside house talk and airing dirty laundry. And I think we have to find a a nuanced voice, but find the balance where we can talk about it in a way that, I guess, balances justice and truth and yet seasoned heavily with grace. So I have found either, criticism for discussing it openly and publicly and a sense of betrayal or others that are more accusatory. Even the leaders themselves who are have the spotlight on them, have wanted to shy away. And and this is obviously, this is a generalization, but not as many as I would hope would have been ready for open scrutiny and independent investigation.
Lisa Fields: Mhmm. When you think about what’s the middle ground, because we live in a tension with social media Mhmm. Where people go extremes on both sides. Yeah. What does health look like in this process that you’ve seen?
Dr. Cynthia James: I think it involves two streams. One for the individual that’s internal, dealing with the grief, recognizing that it is a test of our theological, identity, a process of grieving, recognizing that often congregations attach, to what the leaders’ experiences are, treating it with trauma informed care. So I think individuals have to have one track of of working it through Mhmm. And a clear stays statement Mhmm. That there’s profound pain and injury that goes along with it. Then I think there’s the the corporate or the church organization’s response. So the individual has to be biblical and wise with the process, but I think the organization, the church itself, has to be, again, biblical but more, professionally responsive. Look at things like trauma informed care. Recognize that, typically, at least in my limited experience, when there has been a significant fall, it didn’t happen overnight. So what happened with our systems? What happened with our protocols? Where were our safeguards? And to identify the the distinctives or the distinctions that need to be made between, pastoral restoration and vocational reinstatement. They’re two very different things in my my opinion. I’m not sure if I’m answering the question or not. No. You But, You you hit on something I talk about in the book,
Lisa Fields: that restoration is restoration primarily to a path, not necessarily to a position. Absolutely. So I can restore a person and help them get on their path with the Lord Mhmm.
Dr. Cynthia James: And not restore them to the position because it may not be healthy for them. And then when we look at the pedestal from which they’ve fallen, we can understand that sometimes for congregants, that can look abusive of a leader. Mhmm. But I think from a from that second track as a church, we have to always believe the victims. Mhmm. Now they may not always be a 100% truthful, but I think it’s wiser to believe the victims than to risk not believing them. Mhmm. And that they they get the after the initial statement of profound pain, they get the second most attention Mhmm. To to start that process of healing. And some congregants will feel, because they identify perhaps too strongly with the leader and forget that all of us are, well, from a line from one of my hymns, I would say I should speak for myself. Prone to sin. I’m prone to sin. I won’t speak for everyone, but that there are none that aren’t at risk of falling. And sometime, we have to work with congregates to put some distancing there between their admiration and over idealizing and not be quick to demonize on any side Yeah. Because the system has some loophole somewhere as well as the individual, has somehow escaped the necessary safeguards.
Lisa Fields: Yeah. I think what happens when I’ve seen, in being in the church world all my life Mhmm. Usually, people play this game in their mind, and they’re like, think about all the people that are have been saved. Mhmm. All the people who have been helped. This is just a few people that are saying they’ve been harmed. Let’s weigh the good versus the harm and and and as a justification.
Dr. Cynthia James: And I don’t think there’s a direct line to figure out how to weigh that. I know of an instance. It was not firsthand. I was not present, but it was a fellowship I used to be involved with where there was an associate pastor I understand, so this is hearsay, who had addictions in their life, at least two major ones that they did not overcome. They were quietly dismissed, not publicly, rather than embarrassed because we talk about public sin and public, you know, correction and exposure. But then when the leader, unfortunately, unexpectedly passed away, the congregation, not knowing why the other person had left, wanted someone familiar and brought the person back and made them the senior leader. Mhmm. So for the few who knew of the fall, they could not follow the person because there had never been any but they didn’t wanna publicly expose. And so in this case, so I hear, you have a leader who did not overcome their addictions, now in the key position because the congregates were never brought into the fact that there’s a real problem. Mhmm. Just kinda left mysteriously. The facts of that may not be accurate, but that’s not an unusual situation where we try to keep things private. We don’t wanna overexpose, rightly so, but then we don’t allow congregants to adjust their relationship.
Lisa Fields: Yeah. And that I think that impacts people, in various ways. Mhmm. One of the ways it impacts is family. I remember hearing a a major pastor who fell and his wife, him and his wife, got a divorce. And when she did interviews post that, she said, I lament that the church wanted him back so much. They didn’t care about the repair for his family. Mhmm. So when he was trying to sit down, they were like, no. God is still using you. Get back up again. We all fall short. And she was like, if he could’ve just taken the time, he could’ve saved the church and his family. And that’s a case where our systems have failed. Mhmm. It’s not all the individual, but the church itself
Dr. Cynthia James: has not taken the time to make sure we have the right hierarchy of priorities and and that we’re meeting the needs. I think there are some symptoms. I think, falling can be avoided. Mhmm. I think it can there can be recovery in every instance, but we we’ve said earlier, we have to look at what recovery looks like. But I think there’s some signs, both for the individual and the organization, that we have to look at. This, what some have called in the corporate world, hubris from success, an overbearing arrogance, a denial that we’re at risk, that we’re capable of falling. And when we see that, a rush to just put a to get a quick fist, to look for the silver bullet, a thing that’ll just I’ll wild them with my charisma or my new plan or will go into a great building project, and they have to keep me for a leader. And And then there are the stages of just, falling into content with the relevance. When there’s success, a a leader that says, I have to have more, a scramble for more, more power, more more of the dollars, more of the attention. Those are warning signs, for the individual and for our organization when the ratio between, questions and real responses is low. Mhmm. We ask questions, but can’t really get a full statement following it. Those kinds of things are red flags for us, but it’s difficult if we have a, empowered laity who do what you describe and, you know, just feel like we must rescue.
Lisa Fields: Mhmm. Yeah. And I think people kind of you can over identify because you yourself are experiencing some things you can’t overcome, some sins you can’t. And so it’s like it’s almost projection.
Dr. Cynthia James: It is. And learning detachment. Mhmm. And we no. We think of detachment as cold. But in a therapeutic setting, or my own research settings, we want congregants to know how to healthily detach Mhmm. As well as engage. Mhmm. And and this this fraternal sometimes, fraternity or that that exist of you cover me and I cover you. But I think we also have to watch it because people will generalize and say, all clergy are like this. All clerics are are in the and that’s not the case. Mhmm. But when there is one, it has such great impact. Mhmm.
Lisa Fields: What do you say to people who do have the are in the clergy fraternity? What would be your challenge to them, particularly in this season when it comes to the church’s witness? I think we’re in a very different season than years gone by where certain people would the I feel like the older generation will overlook a lot. And the younger generation I was just talking to one of my friends, and, she was talking about something she was struggling with, and then she went to her mom. Her mom was like, well, that’s just men are just me. Yeah. Yeah.
Dr. Cynthia James: And we and representing, I think, maybe not accurately, but at least a part of that older generation, there is probably a tendency to look at a broader spectrum of behavior Mhmm. And context. I think where there are larger churches, larger ministries, and there’s more history, people are concerned that the whole organization will go down. Mhmm. And so how can we quickly repair? To go back to, I think, how your question was originally stated, what I faced and and issues, what and dealing with that whole fraternity system. I have encountered where pastors, experienced the fall, but it was not public yet. And they identified who should be their reviewers, who should be their investigators. And, when they made a public statement, it was, I selected these three people who really weren’t independent. They may not have been ministers of congregate members of the congregation, but they were people that the violator had trust would protect them. And and some of that is understandable. And they’ve already taken me to review. They’ve already counseled me. I’ve already gone through the paces, and I’m back. Mhmm. Well, you never left. You’re telling us you’re back. Or I’ve been invited to speak in huge congregations where the leader has fallen but remain sitting almost with a watchful eye as a guardian over their pulpit, and what was said or not said rather than really being willing to sit down. And there’s something about a self sit down that means I can self stand up. And so I really, I’m a proponent of independent investigations, people that still have passion and understanding that all can fall. And we have the biblical model of Galatians six and one, you know, how how to restore, how to discipline, to do so in gentleness, lest we fall in humility. So that needs to be a part of it, and I think persons need to be assured that that will happen, that we’re not just pointing a finger and demonizing. But at the same time and then we have Matthew. What is it? Matthew 18? I think it’s Matthew 16 or Matthew eighteen eighteen. I think it is eighteen and fifteen. So we have models in biblically for church discipline and for restoration. But when the lead voice is the voice of the person that has self deceived and deceived others, that person to me needs to learn the humility of being at risk to whatever decisions a review panel makes, not their best friends, not their golfing buddies, not their vacation buddies, not their the other parents or their godparents to their children. That’s too incestuous incestuous within the circle.
Lisa Fields: And I think when we think about, like like, we’re talking about the generational gap. The younger generation is like, we gotta see something a little bit like a separate review
Dr. Cynthia James: versus the internal. You know? Yeah. What worries me about that is to what extent is it a sense of expose Mhmm. Because that’s part of the social media. Everyone is a journalist. Everyone is an authority. Everyone Everybody has to do their own press release. Yes. And so we’re not putting someone on the on the block. You know? We’re not crucifying a leader. Mhmm. But we are separating their personal restoration from what needs to happen to the church. Mhmm. So I think there are that’s why I said a nuanced voice that has levels of public exposure, but I don’t think it all can be hidden. Mhmm. Because too much secrecy builds this mistrust. Mhmm. And, we lose as a church, as a body of Christ when there’s mistrust as well as when there’s trying to crucify. Mhmm. So And if we don’t give a model of restoration,
Lisa Fields: people won’t know that it’s possible for them. I think so many people stay in hiding because they haven’t seen restoration done well on different levels. You don’t even have to be a leader, but just restoring your fellow brother in the faith because of that gentleness component. Can you speak to that? What does that look like? Because I think we’ve lost the ability in our social media age where we’re more wanna be the expose. We lost the gentleness.
Dr. Cynthia James: I think we can draw from a sociological model of trauma informed care Mhmm. Which to me is really modeled in when Elijah was just suicidal, you know, and how the angel came. First, he dealt with his physical needs. You need some rest. You’re burned out. Some self care provided for those physical needs. So and that I think restoration begins with that kind of care. Mhmm. What what what physical state are you in? What emotional state are you in? What psychological state are you in? Mhmm. What are the pressures? So I think it begins there, which is a process, not an an overnight immediate, I took a look and diagnosis. Mhmm. And I think after that, there are, increasing assessment of the damage that has been done to the individual. Can they see rightly? Can they, not have a overwrought ego or self esteem but also not remain damaged and wanting to get revenge and hurt back? Mhmm. So begin looking at their socioemotional state and taking them through paces, whether it’s individual therapy, whether it’s group therapy. But I think it’s it’s kind of a a convergent. I think good restoration looks like convergent from the physical to the emotional to psychological and the spiritual being foundation to all of that. It’s not a quick process. But I think if we, before the falls, both for, congregants and for leaders, assume and really presume our risk and not be in denial of risk or peril, then we can begin a self discovery and exploration. Where am I prone to go left? What really brings the wrong thoughts brings the wrong thoughts in my mind? What when am I charged to be an over anger? What is tempting me that I just assume I have a handle on? Mhmm. So I think we could do a lot beforehand as well as, improve the restoration.
Lisa Fields: Yeah. As I think about you know, I talk about my fallen hero in the book. I I realized as I look back, and hear people talk about him, he didn’t have a lot of margin. Mhmm. Mhmm. So one thing he told me was make sure your public and private life match. Mhmm. That was his advice to me. And if when this first happened, when the scandal broke out after he passed, I said to myself, man, he was that’s that was something he should have been practicing. Mhmm. And at first, I judged him, but I was like as I look back after healing and processing, I was like, I think he’s just trying to help me. Yeah. Of course. He was just trying to help me. And I I look at even when when they were telling me about his policies for his staff. Mhmm. He made sure they could only travel a certain amount of time. Away from him. They couldn’t have but he didn’t have that margin. And so he was trying to set the people up that were following him for success because he knew what caused disaster. And so it’s amazing sometimes you can implement things to help other people because you yourself know the damage that comes
Dr. Cynthia James: when you don’t build marginal. And you’ve experienced it just on public. That’s that overworked term of accountability. Mhmm. But what it and who who really is able to hold a successful top leader accountable? Yeah. Can other top tier people they may know the dangers along the path, but they may have tripped so much on the same thing. Can they really be, more than empathetic? Mhmm. It it’s a tightrope. It’s a it’s a calling, that’s a divine calling, but we’re not divine recipients. Mhmm. And I think we have to remember that. And we have to learn, and I always try to start myself, learn how to take ourself off of pedestals. That’s not a feigned modesty or feigned humility. Mhmm. Because you can’t always stop other people from seeing you larger than life. I don’t I don’t have that problem. I’m not at that level, but I’m I’m speaking generally. But learn how to try to instruct people how to treat us humanly, be prepared for failures in our life and missteps and mistakes, but also find ways to take ourself down. Mhmm. You know? Whether I want to or not, I’m not going for the gold every time. Mhmm. Whether I want to or not, I I need to pay some things. I’m not gonna go for the flash and the dash.
Lisa Fields: So Yeah. And the the pace of ministry can get especially when you’re succeeding. Mhmm. There’s the temptation where everybody’s like, if you don’t go, people won’t be saved. Or if you don’t go, this this move of God won’t happen. That’s what people will start to tell you when you’re successful,
Dr. Cynthia James: which feeds the ego. Yeah. Because you have anointing for that moment. Yeah. When you touch it, it’ll be alright. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You go. Yeah. And that’s presumptuous. Yeah. It it’s competing with god. It’s being a god player in every sense of the word. It feels good to the flesh. Feels like success,
Lisa Fields: but then there’s a crash. Mhmm. Because it’s a false build up. Yeah. One thing I wanna talk about and I I’m always thinking about this because I’m a PK. One of the things when I see leaders fall, I see people do things to the families. Mhmm. Be very dismissive. Mhmm. And it’s almost like you help create conditions where these failures can happen by, like you’re talking about, create not creating healthy, detachment. Mhmm. But you’re it it becomes if not, it becomes very transactional because they don’t have any space to make a mistake. Now some some things are more grievous than others. Some things, like I say It’s a hiccup. Yeah. You can’t get over. Some things a hiccup, and some things you just gotta call the police. You know what I mean? You gotta The smalllessness. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But there’s this, disregard not only of leaders, but of the leaders’ families.
Dr. Cynthia James: Yeah. I think the the onus falls on the leader. Mhmm. There’s this almost perfunctory acknowledgment of leaders of spouses, whether the leader’s, a woman or a man. You know, the the cream in my coffee, the sugar in my tea, and I always go, oh, really? Come on. You know, that’s a person that’s putting you back together sometimes when you’re a wreck after ministering. And you can’t always explain that to other people, but I think, the family without putting them on in a fishbowl any more than they are Mhmm. Their needs, particularly with spouses, they need to the congregation needs to be introduced that this is an important voice in my life. This is a person that I’m accountable to. This is a person that has the right to call me down Mhmm. To sit me down, to pull me back. If that person is not so so concerned about the the income and the revenue stream being threatened and will my kids have college if I so developing that’s a whole another book. Talking about that relationship of spouses and marriage and all of our images of sexuality and gender and where that comes in and who is lead and who is who is follower and and and who was dominant, who was not dominant, and how to do that in a realistic, workable way. But if there’s never been, if and I’m not saying that spouses, male or female, are called to the pass through it, but they must be called to that marriage. It’s it must be an ordained, elect relationship, and the congregation has to learn to honor and respect that. Mhmm. It’s like you us I in in marriage counseling, we say to a spouse who’s disgruntled, you can’t love your children and not love your spouse. You can’t, you know, shower your children with gifts and abuse your spouse. That that’s not a real triangle there. That’s not gonna work. And it’s the same way. You can’t love the leader
Lisa Fields: and not know how to invest in a positive emotion and care for the family. And I I always think it’s so interesting because I I’m I’m like, people must not read the text Because Peter warns that if if, a husband is not treating his spouse right, his prayers will be hindered. So you actually want a leader that has a good relationship with the spouse if they’re the ones you got interceding for you. Yeah.
Dr. Cynthia James: But because we select text out to fit our you know? Well, let’s assume it’s a male and the spouse is a female. But it but if we’re saying this spouse is to be keep silent in the church or if we’re saying that that’s an example of usurping authority, and we’re never quite sure in the Greek what that word authority meant in in Peter’s thing or was he talk I don’t wanna get into that topic of women headship or leadership. But all of those things tie into how we view the spouse, who’s most often a woman. Do they have a right to have a say? Should their feelings be considered? Are they, are we putting them in a place of value that they’re not supposed to have because of what we think Peter was trying to say Mhmm. Or what we think was being described in the text. Yeah. Yeah. So that that plays into it, I think, in a heavy way. Yeah.
Lisa Fields: And I think it’s so important to, like, you know, want people’s families to be well and not just them want you wanna get a good sermon out of them or you wanna get something get a fix. You go in and get a fix. Mhmm. You want them to show up to your stuff. Yeah.
Dr. Cynthia James: Oh, that’s big.
Lisa Fields: I need you to bury my grandma. I I need you to bless my new baby. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And there’s such disregard. And it’s it doesn’t even have to be scandal. I’ve watched megachurch pastors pass, And as soon as they pass, ashes to ashes, dust to dust,
Dr. Cynthia James: they push the family like they never existed. That that’s the standard that we think of Mhmm. That this widow of the former pastor is often confined and, you know, consigned to to back seat spaces. And in some cases, that person may refer prefer that. But there are ways to, protect that is organizationally. That’s why I said there are two tracks. Mhmm. And the organization has responsibility in its structure Mhmm. To look at its protocols. And, and and a pastor, when they’re not under the spotlight, can work if they have the heart to do so. But the organization say this is the way things need to go. This person doesn’t automatically become the successor, but they don’t their labor and commitment is not forgotten. Mhmm.
Lisa Fields: What would you say to the next generation that are struggling, that have seen leader after leader fall, and they’re like, can I trust the church?
Dr. Cynthia James: Is this faith a sham? What would be your words to them? Remind me of that. I’ll say one more thing if you can. We you used the example of megachurches, and I don’t want us to exempt small ministries Mhmm. Because I think the individual is just as prone in a small or modest sized congregation. Mhmm. We we can see megachurches and they’re, you know, internationally exposed, so we point the finger there. But the risk, I think, are everywhere. I would say, that the same laws, the same biblical laws hold true what no matter what the generation, that the gentleness, the humility, the self examination that needs to come, the nuanced voice that’s not quick to demonize a big church or a church versus you know? We don’t go in a store and question the that we wanna buy the product. We wanna get the benefit of it. We don’t say, what’s your life like? You know? When you made this, what how are you living? So church is different. We we need a life to go along with the witness, but I would invite them to delve deeply and do this kind of self examination, lest we fall in the King James of Galatians six and one. And to have a little more sense of context, I don’t want them to become baby boomers. But for example we’re a far reaching example. When I first started ministering and people were living cohabitating without marriage, you know, I was like, no. God said, don’t do that. I still believe what god has said is a model for the family exists, but I’m now more understanding about when you quickly snatch someone out of a home, what has that done for the livelihood, for the food? What has it done for the children? Have have you tossed the family, just ripped their relationships and by throwing a verse at them? That’s what I mean by context. So taking the time to look at, why not be a part of the, restoration, not necessarily for the individual, but for the protocols and the safeguards in the church rather than just stand back. Why not make your contribution and voice felt and heard to say what can we do in more of a preventive measure Mhmm. Rather than a revenge stance. Yeah. You saying you’re even saying that about the, family and the,
Lisa Fields: the financial impact. I always think of, like, one of the biggest obstacles when leaders fall and the their rush to get back in is that their income is tied to Yeah. Them being present. And their children and their spouse. So when they’re looking, they’ve already disappointed their spouse and their children morally. And now it’s like, now I gotta disappoint them financially Mhmm. Because if I step back, I have no funding. And for many, if if you were only training is in ministry Right. And you’re making a good living in ministry, those skills are not always transferable
Dr. Cynthia James: to the corporate world that you can make the same amount. And sometimes they don’t own their own home. Mhmm. They’re or they’re not prepared to carry the expenses of the home because it’s been covered as a parsonage, which is the kind of things that we don’t really deal with in seminary. Mhmm. We don’t talk about finding the right placement, getting the right people in the right placement, having a multitude of skills, not investing all of you in the pastorate and all of one in the ministry Mhmm. Having other options just so that your mind can be engaged in other things. Mhmm. Otherwise, it it’s too much. Mhmm. Too much for the people, too much on the leader. I’ve said to somebody, why don’t you do radio broadcasting? Why don’t you do some other things outside of ministry to bring a different voice, to the surface and for balance? I have alternatives.
Lisa Fields: Yeah. Because it’s almost as if to lovingly and gently restore someone and give them the space so they can steward their house. Yeah. You almost have to create a fund. Yeah. So they have the margin to sit down. Some people, it’s not that they have they because if usually, if they’ve if they made a mistake Mhmm. And they’re aware, usually, probably burnout plays a role in that. Yeah. That’s a struggle. People sometimes will welcome the time if they could take the time. But it’s kinda late when they get to burnout. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Dr. Cynthia James: My thought is that, the entire responsibility does not lay with the church to create a fund, but that individual leaders need to be thinking of possibilities and options, alternative ways because we it’s not always predictable Mhmm. If they miss the signs, miss the red flags of what might happen. So it’s good to for everyone to think about, what’s my fallback? What what is my contingency
Lisa Fields: plan in in the whole thing? Yeah. Not putting all your eggs in one basket.
Dr. Cynthia James: Because That sounds like a baby boomer statement. Yeah.
Lisa Fields: Everybody’s not gonna like you said, this is not just something that impacts megachurches, impacts medium churches Smaller. And smaller churches. And so even when we think about, like, people having margin, we have to think about, even with smaller churches, the complexity of people being bivoc bivocational.
Dr. Cynthia James: Yeah. So their burnout could just be them just trying to maintain. And there are some people that believe that it’s not biblical for pastors to be vivocational. I happen to support it Yeah. Unless Yeah. As a a relief vow. Yeah. But others feel that that that’s totally out of order. Yeah. And then there are the things of whose voice will the offender hear? And I think I’d said to you another time, I had to work with that. Will they hear an older person? Will they only hear from another male? Will they hear from, a person? Many times in the churches that I oversaw, there was a race difference. So I was outside of their what they considered their power circle. Mhmm. So pastors of a different race would speak to me more openly, sometimes of same race. Mhmm. So that’s that multitude of counsel
Lisa Fields: that needs to be brought to bear, what I meant by convergent voices. Yeah. It’s funny because when you when I that you say, who will you listen to? Mhmm. In the in the book, I talk about lessons we can learn from, Old Testament kings. Mhmm. And one of them was Josiah. Josiah was my one of my favorite kings in the Old Testament. But I think his life ended in such a fascinating way. That whole thing of, like, he did not listen to the pharaoh. Right. And it’s like, well, why would he take advice from the pharaoh about what he should do? Yeah. And this it reminds me, like, God could use anybody to speak to you. Yeah. And it may not be your normal person. It may not be Holder this time. You know? I was just gonna say, but Holder was in the backdrop. Holder was in the backdrop. And they went to Holder, and it was like, but it it makes me sensitive to god could be speaking to you from people Mhmm. That you don’t even think follow him. Right. And you can’t be so high on your horse that you’re not willing to listen when god is trying to give you direction because he would not always give you direction from the people you
Dr. Cynthia James: anticipate. Absolutely. And that’s why I said earlier, we look for a balance between what’s justice Mhmm. On both sides and for trust, and a balance of grace. And it’s not just those isolated, segments, but the three of them somehow commingle the three of them mixed together Mhmm. I think come up with a very different outcome. Mhmm. But there there are the hold of voices that are not center stage. Mhmm. I think her husband was keeper of the wardrobe, which always suggests to me a subtle influence she had of the garments. Mhmm. I assume the king’s garments. Mhmm. So, was he really keeping them, or was Hilda keeping them? Mhmm. That, you know, that whole interplay of having those background folks Mhmm. That are, basic, that will deal with the basics Mhmm. Not on stage, but, you know, are you dressed? Mhmm. Are you righteously? Are you spiritually dressed? Mhmm. Are you emotionally covered? Mhmm. That kind of thing.
Lisa Fields: Well, thank you, doctor James. This has been a rich conversation. Y’all thank you for tuning in to another, session of or another episode that centers around the book When Heroes Fall. You get the book wherever books are sold. Remember, you can support the G3 Project by going to our website and becoming a monthly partner or one time giver at g3project.org and hitting that donate tab. All of our podcasts, resources, and all the things are on the on the website. And we have a brand new website, that will be coming very, very soon, so stay tuned for that. Until next time, grace and peace, and god bless.