Panelist: Thank you for tuning in to Humble Hermeneutic, a Jude three Project podcast. This podcast is sponsored by the Jude three Project and is made possible by generous supporters like you. If you would like to become a a monthly supporter of the Jude three Project or give a one time gift, you could do so at jude3project.org, or you could take our online courses or get our curriculum at jude3project.org as well, and we also have merch available. I hope you enjoy this episode with Yanna Connor and doctor Cynthia James, and I hope that you develop a humble hermeneutic.
Host: Hello. And it’s our privilege to be with you again as we move into another text. And this time, it’s that little small book that’s almost, hidden in the Old Testament, four chapters is the book of Jonah. And we wanna suggest that Jonah is good reading even though it’s something that you’ve heard about almost as a fable or a fairy tale. So I’m delighted to be with miss Yana again, and let’s just jump in and talk about this text, and what it says to you and me and hopefully what it’ll cause all of us to examine further.
Panelist: Great. Great. I’m excited. I’m excited to, jump in. Jonah is one of my favorite books of the bible and part of it is because it’s it’s sort of like a literary masterpiece. Right? It’s it’s not just like somebody sat down and, like, just, you know, summarize the story, but there was a lot of thought and detail, put into this. And so we probably all first encountered the story of Jonah in Sunday school. Right? And we were told that Jonah, you know, he he was scared to go to Nineveh. Well, when I started reading my Bible, I was shocked to see that Jonah was not scared. Jonah was not scared. That’s not why he didn’t wanna go to Nineveh. He, he was mad. You know that he had some. He has some deeper and more complex feelings in that and so we see in Chapter one the Lord comes to Jonah and he says, Hey, get up and go to the great city of Nineveh and preach against it because of because their evil has come before me and then it immediately Jonah goes in the opposite direction and gets on a ship headed to Tarshes and he is essentially seeking to flee the presence of God. But as we know, God is everywhere right, there’s no such thing as fleeing the present presence of an omniscient omnipresent God and so he knows where Jonah is and he sees Jonah and so Jonah gets on this boat and there’s a great storm in the ocean in the sea and everybody’s looking around all the same was like hey who this ain’t this ain’t just some regular kind of storm you know this storm feels a little different. It feels like there’s some intention behind it and so they all begin to cry out to their gods to for relief, but here it is Jonah is down in the bottom of the ship sleeping, you know just taking a good old nap and one of the sailors confront him is like hey man get up and pray to your God. If you don’t we’re going to perish and so they bring Jonah up to and they begin to cast lots to see who is the cause for the situation that they’re in and what they discover is that Jonah is the cause and they all look at Jonah like what you do bruh like what did you do? And let’s fix it right now. So they ask you hey, Jonah. What do we need to do in order to not be in this predicament because Jonah says, like hey, I’m a Hebrew I I serve the God who has control over the season and so they’re like well if this is if you serve the guy who’s in control of the season like we need you to fix it, you know but and Jonah says that the way to fix the problem is to throw him off the boat. And so, of course, they’re like nah bro. We don’t. We don’t really want to do that, but as the storm gets more intense, they pray and they say well, Lord like don’t let us perish because of this man’s life. We’re just doing what we think you know is best and they throw him over the ship. And then the lord, the the chapter one ends and saying that the lord appointed a great fish to swallow Jonah, and Jonah was in the belly of the fish for three days and three nights. Incredible. Incredible story. Doctor Cynthia, what what immediately stands out to you, in this first chapter?
Host: Well, first of all, no one can summarize like you can’t. That was great. And, before maybe just, just taking on the the approach and the head of our humble hermeneutic, let’s, can I can I kinda dot through it again? Absolutely. As you as you talked, a number of things came out as patterns. One was, well, let’s remember that the book of Jonah is the only book about a prophet. I mean, the whole book is about the prophet more than anything else. So, it’s almost a special delivery, whatever. To to those who are leaders, who are in ministry, who have accepted a call in the kingdom. I mean, this is designed to challenge us in that way. It’s not just that it’s named to. There are other books named after the prophet but this is the singular book that has that kind of a focus and he is bold. You’re so right. I mean, he is fearless to god says go left and he goes right. And then, you know, I was going a little bit ouch because sometimes I eased right when god said left. I might have not been this open about it. So maybe there’s something to good to be said somewhere in here about the fact he wasn’t dissembling. He wasn’t pretending. God said yes and he said no. You know, it’s just he did. Sometimes we say yes and mean no and do no, but we say yes. So at least there’s a consistency, about what his his attitude. I noticed, taking a literary look of some patterns that stand out to me in this first chapter. The number of times it talks about him going down. I’ve not counted them, but at least three times, it occurs to me that he goes down, goes down, and then there’s one where he’s gone down. And then later, when they throw him over the water, there’s the image of going down. So, you know, it’s the idea the question emerges on the text, sink or swim. You’re gonna make it or you’re not gonna make it and, taking a telescope rather than a microscope, we we see symbolizes and hear echoes of other scriptures. For example, when Jonah went down And so often, when Samson went down, and it’s kinda giving us a forecast that he may be in some serious trouble. The other thing that emerges, is our words like hurled and tossed. There’s, the language that’s used almost creates a sound to me, and I admit my brain can be a little different. The sound of the wind and the waves and the ship tossing because god hurled a wind. He didn’t just send a wind like for Moses. He just sent a great east wind but god hurled the wind. I mean, so there’s this battle going on. This man that is gone right when he was told to go left or vice versa And God doesn’t is not just, indifferent, but he hurls a wind. And then they toss him into the sea. And the lot fell. All of these verbs have great energy with them. So that’s what’s engaging to me. The the way in which it’s written. We also noticed that the people had sense enough to be afraid of a god that wasn’t their god, and Jonah didn’t have enough sense to fear. They had enough sense to pray. Maybe I shouldn’t use word sense but savvy. To pray to their gods, whoever they were, like, if I got anything going, I’m a try it right now. A crystal, a rock, a stone, whatever. They prayed to their gods and Jonah was indifferent and we know later, he talks about the fact he knows what kind of god he has. I won’t spoil that now but he knows his god. So there’s a theme here, that I think emerges and we’ll see it throughout of this god. You you reference it, this creator god, this god of the wind, this god of the waves, this god that can command the fish, this god who ends the whole book talking about animals. So there’s there’s a there’s a a green piece echo in here, that we can’t just be about people, but there’s this constant inclusion of animals and nature and environment, and god is concerned about the other. And there seems to be the secondary theme or maybe it’s primary about crying to the lord and praying. When the storm came, the people didn’t even when they knew Jodah was the fault, they did not immediately abandon him. I think so much of these so called heathens, their sense of camaraderie and, wanting to rescue, they just tried hard, and you brought that out. They wrote harder. They didn’t write him off. And sometimes the scripture says the children of I don’t remember exactly how it goes because something like the children of of the world are wiser than the children of whatever. So it’s kind of like we can sometimes see some desirable characteristics in the world of community and connection and care and concern that maybe in the kingdom we need to emulate a bit more. So they were more concerned about trying to save themselves and Jonah, than he was ever about trying to can save, save them. And then you mentioned him being sleep, and that readily gives us that image of Jesus asleep in the boat, and, you know, but a very different situation. But it reminds me of, was he playing god? But did he find himself above the law that he, like a Jesus, could sleep in the middle of the storm? And I just kept hearing that work your that word, I guess, is your generation or the next one uses about like being woke. It’s like, you know, I don’t know how to put that intense. Like, is it wake, awaken, wakes, whatever. But he needs to be woke. He he needs to be alert to whatever is going on in the situation. And they toss him in which, the god answers by the sea ceasing to rage. Now, you you led us into that lead in before, chapter two. Do you really believe that there was a big fish to swallow Jonah? I mean, can you I do.
Panelist: I believe it. I believe it. I used to.
Host: Until this morning, when I read that Jonah. And for the first time, because I am an absolute as pretty much, pretty much, not not totally, but pretty much I say, if the word says it, it happened. I mean, if god can raise Jesus from the dead, which I totally believe, he could do anything. Now, I I’ll I’ll allow for it. I’ve always looked at it literally but I am now becoming a little more open to this being a parable because I don’t struggle with parables as to whether or not it happened. Understand it’s a parable and the scripture announces it as a certain man or a certain woman or it announces that Jesus taught this in parable saying. This doesn’t have that kind of announcement, but it has the feel to me of a parable. And so I’m comfortable with it either way. The lesson is clear whether it literally happened or whether it is given for my example. But, you know, that’s the first thing unbelievers say. I don’t believe a fish swallow a man and then
Panelist: next No. I think that I mean, I I believe that that story, is real, but I I do see, like, it does feel like a parable. Like, when we read Jesus’, you know the Parables that Jesus told in the New Testament, I mean this the ending to Jonah is kinda like what am I supposed to do with that you know. And that’s how a lot of Jesus is like Parables ended where it was kind of like there was a question that was being posed to the audience. You know that he wasn’t giving them the answers, but he was presenting the story and then leading them to think about it so that they could evaluate themselves and, consider how they are to live in light of whatever Jesus just said to them. But I I I I guess I sort of bank my assurance in the fact that this is like a real story because Jesus talks about Jonah in the New Testament as a historical figure and not as you know a fable right and so
Host: yeah the history of Jonah is well established. I mean that this man lived that this to me is like do they still talk about spandex or is that a private conversation? No you this is this is the spandex of the Bible. You can get in and and that’s why I say parable. It it stretches to fit a lot of different situations. It’s the elasticity of it that makes it feel like a parable. But I can handle that if I have the expectation that I will one day be resurrected to see the lord. I can handle a big fish. I mean, that’s that’s much more of a expectation than what happens to Jonah. Yeah. Amen.
Panelist: So so before we move on to chapter two, there are, there are, there are, like, two questions that come to the surface for me when I, like, read this text. The first question, and I don’t necessarily want us to answer it now, but the first question is, like, why doesn’t Jonah wanna go to Nineveh? Like, why why does he why doesn’t he want to go? Like, what is it about Nineveh that is, so repulsive, to him? Because here it is. Like, you know, Joe, like you said, he’s a prophet. His job is to be a messenger. Right? Is to be an order, of God, but he doesn’t like the message right, but and so because he doesn’t like the message, he goes in the opposite direction and not only that, but Jonah thought that it was better to be thrown, hurled into the sea rather than to go to I mean this is this is suicidal right like he’s like it is it is better for me to die than to go and to preach God’s message to these people and so his his feelings against Nineveh are strong. You know like these aren’t just you know, I just didn’t wanna go. It’s like no. I don’t wanna go and I actually don’t think that God should have sent me to go because those people don’t deserve to hear, the message of God. And so because here it is, Jonah had a choice. He had a choice when he was on the boat and and everybody was like, what do we need to do? He could have said, well, let me just let me go ahead and repent. And if y’all actually turn this boat around and he had Nineveh, I I’m pretty sure the storm will will stop. You know? Like, there were other options that he could have chosen before throw me over the boat. And so we can see that he has, like, some intense and strong hatred, towards his people that that he’s he’s willing to die
Host: rather than to to go to them. That’s incredible to me. You you you raised a profound question and you answered it even more profoundly. You started off with the message, but you’ve moved us to it’s not so much the message he’s rejected because he’s accept the call. It is the people. It’s the we, they, the Us, and the them. Whether that’s political parties, whether it’s ethnicity, whether it’s race, whether it’s geography. It’s the prejudice that says, I’d rather lose it all than have this connection with those other folks. I’d, and you said you said it. There’s nothing I can add to it. It it didn’t wanna take the message to them. And how many times do we see whether it’s a risk of government, a risk of our country, a risk of, decent schools, education systems, health care. We’d rather risk exposure of disease, perhaps. I’m saying allegedly. Then see everyone get fair access to health care. We’d rather risk perhaps having, prisons that go beyond the boundaries of what they should do, and it might even happen to my son, in hopes that it will happen to other folks’ child and that I’ll escape. This idea that he could have a message that we should keep to themselves and they don’t deserve and to think we oh my. We’re not going there today, but I hear Mordecai saying, don’t think you’re gonna escape. You know, for at this, it’s not the same as for such a time as this, but he the message that and Jonah symbolizes Israel. He’s the only Israelite in here, but he symbolizes Israel. And somehow, he he maintains what he thinks is an exclusivity, a playing of god, a privilege, and we know what that word carries with it that, says my my my task is to do this except over there. And and I think it is pure purely an ism that comes in all kinds of forms. For some that may be gender issues, but it’s a it’s a matter of inclusive inclusivism or being exclusive, and I think any way you look at it. I’m glad you did allow us to go into that that answer. Thank you for asking it and for answering it. Yeah. I mean, I think this is kind of the equivalent
Panelist: of, you know, I can I can draw some parallels to, like, contemporary moments, for us? You know? January 6, you know, there was an insurrection at the Capitol. And, you know, if God was to tell me, like, Yana, I am sending you to, share the gospel with, people who subscribe to white supremacy. I would I would I would be like, I don’t know, Lord. Or I’ll run a camp run a revival with the with the Ku Klux Klan. Yeah. It’s like, I have to just and they don’t seem they don’t seem like, you know, one, it don’t seem you know, one, it don’t seem safe. And two, it’s like, why would you send me to them? You know? And I love that you said that in this in this story that Jonah record you know, he represents Israel. Right? But he has this view of himself that he is you know him and his people are superior to nenovites right because they are the chosen people of God, but here’s the thing like the Israelites were just as trifling as the Ninevites. Like, like, it’s not like, you know, they were they were better or more holy or anything like that. They committed some of the same outrageous sins that, that Nineveh, committed. And so why does he feel like, you know, they they are better, you know, than the Ninevites and that they are more deserving of the message of god’s salvation than, Nineveh. So we could we could riff about that for for a while. But then we move into chapter two, and we see that Jonah comes to a place of humility. He realizes that he’s not in control. You know that even though he was doing everything he could to not go to Nineveh. Now he’s he’s he’s in a in a holding pattern. He’s like in a jail cell within the belly of this big fish and he talks about like how he cries out to the Lord in his distress and he cries out to the Lord for help from deep inside. Shiloh and he want you know and the Lord heard his voice and so he has like this moment of of repentance and then at the end, he says, those who cherish worthless idols abandon their faithful love. But as for me, I will sacrifice to you with a voice of Thanksgiving, I will fulfill what I have vowed. So now he’s saying I will fulfill my my vow to be your prophet and then, he says salvation belongs to the Lord and so it’s like he has this moment of repentance and repentance and realizing that salvation does not belong to him that he doesn’t get to choose who God is gracious to and who he is not gracious to, but that instead, salvation belongs to the Lord and the Lord can extend grace and mercy to whomever he he chooses and then the Lord commands the fish to vomit Jonah out to to dry land. And so what what stands out to you about this sort of transition that happens within Jonah’s Jonah’s heart? A keyword, that you use that really rings for me is he has this moment.
Host: It is indeed surface. It is shallow, and it is a moment. Who doesn’t say, god, if you get me out of this, I’ll never do it again. Lord, you save me from this. If you deliver me from this habit, I’ll never go back. If you get me out of this relationship, I’m sorry I didn’t listen to you. If you just just give me one more moment. I mean, I this is a universal prayer. It just it does have it and it is a moment and we know it’s a moment having read the next two chapters. There’s, wonderful parallels. When I when I say is, we have a stethoscope that we put to this text, and what we hear is the the heartbeat of the pulse of of what’s being birthed inside of it. And, I think when we do that, give me for these female examples of, pregnancy that this text we hear, and some kind of sonogram. Jesus going down. In death. In the grave. Having take captivity captive. He is in a type of hell. When it says Shiel. Ascended to that low place. And if if nothing more than just for the fun of it, I don’t say it’s proper exegesis. But just for the fun because I think we can play with text. Jesus has been tossed and hurled into the mad dashing sea of our world. And he had immersed himself in, the waters of our lives, of trouble, and sickness, and rejection, and ultimately crucifixion. He has died and gone down through the grave, death, and the grave and faced hell. For us. Amen. You started with that moment. And he he is in a pit that perhaps gives us that foretaste of divine from the hymn where he has gone down. And the bars of death and hell that gripped our savior are like the seaweed that must have gripped him in that dark, deep, Saturday night before the resurrection. Except we don’t wanna go too far with that because we know that Jesus was not repenting. He was not there for his own disobedience or sin. He did not to have have to have a change of mind. Being the sinless savior. But it it’s so wonderful how the threads go from Genesis to Revelation. And we can tie them off with different passages. And not that they are the same. But we get the feel. So by the time we get to Jesus in the grave, that Saturday night darkness, we know, we we we say, I I’ve tasted this before. I’ve I’ve I’ve sensed this before, a glimpse this before. And then we have the power of the lord again as our creator theme. He spoke, you know, he sent the wind. He settled the sea, calmed the sea, and he spoke to the fish. I think I’m in a new Americans or or what is this version? It’s a modern English version and it it will use the term repeatedly. Jesus appoint god appointed. He appointed the fish and he appointed other things that are going to come in subsequent chapters and I like the what that word in this particular. I don’t remember what NIV here King James NRSV used but that appointed underscores the sovereignty of god, the authority that that his power has not diminished. He’s still orchestrating. He sits on the circle of the earth and he’s got stuff. He’s handling it and is in control. That’s what leaps out to me.
Panelist: Yeah. I think that that is is is, like, one of the the major things that this text is trying to get across to us is that God is in control. Yes. And and we even see that when it says, you know, salvation belongs to God. And so I just before we end, I think it would be I just wonder if there’s ever been a time in your life where and I’ll think about something in my own life, where God has impressed on you to do something and you were like, no, I don’t wanna do that. And then he’s he kinda just, like, he he he sort of, like, proved that he was in control and got you to to say yes to his will.
Host: I I can limit it to a couple, and I’ll tell the public ones, but I think all of us probably have some we don’t wanna share till we were disobedient. And I have a a a list probably longer than others of unwise things done, things I failed to do, and apparent public regretful mistakes. I remember an easier one was I was in a doctor’s office and I felt prompted in my spirit. This is years ago. So I don’t remember what kind of doctor. I think it was a dentist or something. To witness. Out of nowhere, I just felt like tell them tell them about the lord. Tell them about Jesus. You need to say something right here. Speak up right now. They need it and I resisted that. I was like, I want this to be a casual appointment. I want I don’t this is not a one of my regular physicians that I have a relationship with. I want to get in and out and I didn’t do it and I was convicted for days and I spent days saying, lord, if I could just get back, if you just get me in front of that person one more time, I I’ll do it that way and I never got to deliver that per se. There have been other times I had two in mind. That one was that’s a easy one to tell publicly because it’s there’s no embarrassment to it. But there were times I was haughty. I had a message that felt the Lord had given me. And I didn’t intend to tell this one. And there was another evangelist who had come out of recently come from. We all have come from something hopefully. But it recently come from a very sketchy lifestyle. Kind of red light district if that means anything to the audience. But but clearly scandalous and almost immediately in the pulpit and saying I’m a prophet. Called of the Lord they say. So I accept that. And we were both going to be speakers at this retreat and I felt the lord had given me an amazing message. I mean, I got Jonah attitude like this is the word Excuse me. This is the word for the folks. It’s going to help em and bless em. I got so arrogant about this unusual message. I didn’t realize it until later. We got to the retreat and I thought it was all revelation because I couldn’t find anything but it lined up with scripture and the other speaker oh, you know, I was like, okay, you do your thing and then, I’m coming with this word. She got up and I’m telling you, she had one of them names, you know, like like my daughter has. I’ll say that so no one feels offended because my daughter has one like Shanika Wica on top of that. I mean, she had this interesting name that just exposed upcoming from the community and if she didn’t preach the same message I had down to the detail to the a b c one, two, three and I knew she didn’t know how to go dig it out that way but the Holy Spirit is the giver and the controller and the lord revealed it to her and it was powerful. The people who were professional, repented, and drew an altar call, and then after we were all, I was mad, but everyone else was repenting and cry, crying, and teary eyed, and I mean, she chose up. And then they called on the reverend doctor, whatever the title. You know, read my resume and I had nothing to say. Because it sound like I came empty and I was just repeating her and I was trying to put it words and I had to confess before the people that in essence, I mean, you know, some points might have been different but in essence, the word belong to the lord. Salvation is of the lord. He used her. It was impactful and he dismissed me. I think on my attitude. I learned to I’ve learned many lessons but I learned a lesson there talking about a humble hermeneutic. You know, that’s a little different than the way you asked. Yeah. But I I I went where I was supposed to go but I didn’t have the right attitude. And didn’t even recognize it till I had to be shamed.
Panelist: I love that. I love that you you shared that, because I think I think one of the things that I can sometimes miss when I’m reading Jonah is that God’s not just calling Jonah to Nineveh for Nineveh’s sake. God is calling Jonah to Nineveh for Jonah’s sake. You know that there is there is something that God there is something that God wants to do in his messenger right that he is trying. There’s a lesson that he wants to teach them him. There’s a change that he wants to happen in his heart so that he you know comes into agreement, not just with you know being the Lord’s you know messenger, but like also that he agrees with the message that he agrees with the character and desires of God’s heart. You know that he doesn’t just say yes to his will, but that he also says yes to like the Lord’s way of bringing about his salvation even when that is you know, apparently in disagreement with what he believes is what’s best And so it seems like in that I I know you’re trying to close this down, but don’t go too fast right here. I don’t know what what we have to do because
Host: you gotta work that a little bit because you’re saying that the message is also for the messenger. So can you just say a little bit more about what that agreement ought to be in our lives as messengers when we are giving the message to the other people?
Panelist: Yeah. Like, so for here in this instance, like here is Jonah. God has sent Jonah to Nineveh, right? These people are not a part of Israel. They’re not a part of the chosen people of god but if you go back to like the story of Abraham, you know the the whole intention was for Israel to be a blessing to all the nations right, it was never just supposed to be something that they kept to themselves, but it was supposed to be something that they invited the nations into and so here it is you have this sinful nation. The net of it and God is sending Jonah right to to go and share his salvation with him and this is this is on par with what God wants and has always wanted, but Jonah doesn’t wanna go to them because he believes that they are undeserving you know of of the gospel message, but the truth is that they are deserving of the gospel message because they are created in the image of God right and so who is Jonah to tell God that you know there are some people who are more deserving than others, you know and so for me sometimes when they’re usually when I’m discipling someone you know and they’re not getting their life together. You know I want to dismiss them. You know I want to stop investing my time and my words you know and my energy instead of relationship, but the Lord has sent me you know to them. So who am I to say that they are no longer deserving of of being, you know, encouraged to grow,
Host: and become more like Christ. But you’ve cut even deeper than that. You you’ve cut to a place where is can I give a word that I’m not living? Can be be because that that’s what I really heard, initially. Not only did he dismiss them, but can we bring people to a place that we’re not in that place? Can we bring them to a relationship with god that we have fallen out of relationship with? Does the word do its work despite the the speaker? Or are are putting it, are we condemning ourselves as we, as you said, we don’t have to answer it because I can think of examples where I think, oh, amazing word and then you look behind the doors of the person’s life and you go, you need to preach that word to yourself, maybe. Amen. And be a living example and yet we see the word doing the work or does that spirit in me that is out of sync with god put some limitations. I don’t know if it’s possible for me to say put limitations on god’s word but does it hinder the word and present a barrier to it? I don’t know but the but but what you brought up and and we can just leave it there. The necessity for congruency between the inner nature of the prophet, the speaker, the the Sunday school teacher, the witness, whoever, and and the word they’re giving. That there needs to be a that’s what I heard you say. Oh, don’t let me say that. There wasn’t but there needs to be a a sameness. In other words, clean water needs to come out of a clean bottle. You know, a dirty bottle came clean water. It’s a problem. And and Jonah’s messed up. But the word, we’re gonna find what it does for the people anyway, I guess. Yeah. Yeah. So let’s let’s let’s end it there,
Panelist: and we’re gonna start with that question in the next in the next, episode where we walk through the final, chapters of the book of Jonah. Conversation. I’m always surprised at where the Lord leads us, and so I hope that you have been, encouraged and edified by it, as much as we have. And so we’ll, see you guys next time. Thank you for listening to Humble Hermeneutics, a Jude three Project podcast with doctor Cynthia James and Yana Connor. Remember to rate and subscribe on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts and also remember that you could become a monthly partner or a one time giver of the Jude Three Project at jude3project.org. Every gift helps equip and helps us produce more content like this. In addition, if you would like to get merch, take an online course, or get our curriculum, you could do so at jude3project.org. Remember, here at the Jude three Project, we’re helping you to to know what you believe and why you believe it. God bless.