Lisa Fields: Hello. Welcome to the Jew three Project podcast. I’m your host, Lisa Fields. I’m the founder of the Jew three Project. Well, thank you for watching another episode of the G three Project podcast. As always, I’m your host, Lisa Fields, the founder of the G three Project. And today, I’m joined by a dear friend of mine, mister Justin Gibney. Welcome, Justin. Lisa v. What’s up?
Justin Giboney: For those who don’t know who you are, tell out what it’s a little bit about about yourself. Yeah. So I am I live in Atlanta, Georgia. I’m an attorney, a political strategist, and I’m the, an ordained minister and also the cofounder of the and campaign, which aids it, which is a Christian civic organization.
Lisa Fields: Yeah. And we you’ve been on the podcast several times. You’ve been to Courageous Conversations, so you’re no stranger to the g three project audience, But you have wrote a new book. Don’t let nobody turn you around, and I’m I’m thankful to be able to endorse the book. Yeah. What made you want to write the book? I feel like it’s perfect for this current
Justin Giboney: political moment. But what made you wanna write it? What made me wanna write this book is just seeing the polarization and kind of toxicity in our public square, in our politics, and in our culture, and feeling like the civil rights generation, which is probably our grandparents’ generation, had an answer to a lot of what’s going on. And I feel like those lessons that they taught us, and not just taught us, but taught the world, right, through the civil rights movement, are needed right now. And we need to kinda revive and revisit some of those to get through what I see as a a culture war that’s tearing this country apart and leaving a lot of people who need help and need policies to get we need policies to get them help. They’re not getting it because we can’t interact with each other, in an in a constructive way.
Lisa Fields: Yeah. And I think that’s so crucial, especially when we think about we were just at Morgan State last night. And one of the things that I think comes up with the next generation is feeling like the ways in which our ancestors handled things. You know, we’re not our ancestors’ generation. It has a very negative view at those who came before us. Right? And so I think it’s important to reclaim the heart behind our ancestors’ actions Right. Versus just seeing them as like, oh, I I don’t I don’t wanna move like them or Yeah. You know, nonviolence and all those things.
Justin Giboney: You you’re about to say something? Yeah. I was just I agree with you. There are a lot of people who almost see what they did as weakness, but to say that is to completely misunderstand what they were doing. Not only were was what they were doing extremely strategic, but it was courageous and it was effective. So a lot of the things, these public temper tantrums that we show, they make us feel, you know, like we did something, but they’re actually not effective. And you can say what you want about the tactics. It’s hard to show me another movement that’s been more effective.
Lisa Fields: Mhmm. What strategies do you lay out in your book from the previous generations that you think our audience needs to consider and really, learn from?
Justin Giboney: Well, it starts with a with a kind of a a spiritual outlook. The number one thing is how do we perceive others, our political opponents, and and how do we perceive ourselves? What one of the things that the civil rights generation was able to do and in the book, I call it, Willie Faye and Mahalia’s generation. So I I I look at this I come at the the history in the book through the eyes of my through the lives of my grandmother and her favorite gospel artist, which was Mahalia Jackson. So that’s kinda how I I go about this. But that particular generation was able to confront extreme injustice, real wickedness, you know, right in front of them, right, you know, right beside them. But at the same time, so be tenacious in that, but also have a sort of grace where you could tell they wanted redemption even for the people who were doing all these things to them. And that’s one thing, especially after we see, you know, the Charlie Kirk assassination and all that. That’s one thing we just don’t have anymore. And I think we think it makes us more authentic. Think it makes us look more passionate, but I think it’s actually corrupting to the spirit. I need to be able to fight against injustice and the people who are, being unjust with all the strength that I have, and I need to take it seriously and I should not be naive about how harmful wickedness can be, that doesn’t mean that I have to reciprocate the hate. That doesn’t mean that I’m gonna hold everyone who disagrees with me on race in contempt and act like they’re irredeemable. That’s the difference. And when we don’t start with that outlook, I think we miss the fact that you can be fighting against something evil and become evil. Not every resistance to evil is good. Mhmm. And we I think we’re missing that right now.
Lisa Fields: Yeah. I love that. I think one of the things that I’ve been challenged on in my personal devotion is the reminder as I think about this current moment is that the thought came to me as I was reading, through the gospels that Jesus loved the Pharisees. And we don’t think about that. Like, Jesus loves the Pharisees so much that he died for them. At the same time, he corrected them. And so his love for them didn’t go without correction, but his love for them still led him to lay down his life. And that that’s the tension that God is, like, pushing in me through my time with him. Like, what does it mean to challenge people that oppress us and get and use the bible to harm people, which the Pharisees were doing. They were miss misusing the law to harm people on the margins, but also to love them enough to lay down my life for them, which is like a
Justin Giboney: a a hard tension to live in. It’s a hard tension to live in. And think about what else he did. So not only did he critique the Pharisees, he critiqued the Sadducees. He critiqued others. We have this thing where once I identify that white evangelicals have a big issue, they’re the only ones that can be critiqued. And to critique yourself internally is wrong. But what he’s doing is he’s actually critiquing his own people. Mhmm. Someone someone, you know, when I when I say something about, you know, what our community can do can do better sometimes, just out of pure love in the in the spirit of nanny Helen Burroughs and the spirit, you know, of, all all those folks who’s who’s done that forever. It’s almost like, well, since we’re being mistreated, you can’t critique us. And it’s like, well, don’t you realize that Jesus’ people were under an occupation? And so basically, you’re saying the only people he should have critiqued were the was the Roman government. No. He didn’t do that. He critiqued his own people too because they needed to, have moral improvement. They needed to approach things better. And you don’t see that from us today. Like, the I’ve said before that I think the secular active secular activism is really discipling a lot of people in the church. And with secular activism in this culture war, you can’t critique yourself. That’s self hate. That’s all this other stuff. But if you look, you know our grandparents and that just what we the the tradition in the church, we always critique each other out of love, because that’s the only way that you can grow if you critique yourself. And so that part of the culture, I think, is at odds with the legacy and really with the growth of the church. And we really need to bring that back. Like, every time I question if I’m doing it in love, that’s actually a good thing. Not not pretending that we’re perfect or that it’s only a, you know, white evangelical problem, and that’s the only thing we need to focus on.
Lisa Fields: Yeah. I think the the the criticism that comes from the self the challenge for people is, like, we don’t wanna critique our this is often the black thing. Don’t critique black people in front of white people. Yep. You know how that goes. So there’s the tension of when is the appropriate time. Mhmm. And when the any Internet culture, you could be speaking to black people, but people think, oh, white people see it. So it’s kind of like asking people, well, when is the correct time and where’s the correct time? And I think it also depends on where you’ve been developed and and shaped. Right? Yeah.
Justin Giboney: And and and two, there are people who’ve made an industry out of being the black person that critiques other black people for white people. But I also say that, like, I’m not gonna stop the the white gaze is not gonna stop me from saying, hey, we can do this better. And And if somebody else sees it, they just see it. But what ends up happening is there’s never a right time. Right? Mhmm. And even in those even in those closed doors closed door conversations, it begins to be something that’s looked down upon because we’re always kinda pointing at somebody else. And so we I think we have to do both. And again, I I say that from looking at how that generation handled it. You you read some of doctor King’s sermons or see some of the things he said even publicly, And sometimes they were challenging to his community. And if we lose that self examination, I just think we’re not being faithful. We can talk about the gays. We can talk about not making an industry out of doing that for other people. But I think that’s gone so far and it’s not doing it at all. And I think that’s problematic.
Lisa Fields: What what other things can we learn from the generation before us? It for our current moment in in the justice fight. Because for for many people, they feel like there’s nothing they can do. Mhmm. Like, on there’s so much of onslaught of what’s happening in our political sphere that they feel kind of paralyzed and hopeless.
Justin Giboney: Mhmm.
Lisa Fields: What are what are some things that one can do in this current moment that we learned from your book? Yeah. They were very resourceful.
Justin Giboney: And so one of the things we have to do, yes, on a national level, some serious injustices are being done. And and we should never ignore those, and we can push back against that. But everything’s not national. And Mhmm. We have a lot you have to identify your power. We have a lot of power on low on a local and community level regardless of who’s in the White House. And we are remiss not to grab a hold of that and not make everything national. I truly believe that your church, your community can have a greater impact on people in that area than the president does if you’re deliberate and if you go about it with a sort of tenacity. Don’t hand over all the rest of your power just because you might have lost power on a federal level. That’s gonna impact you. I’m not downplaying it, but there’s a lot of other ways to have an impact on the child next door. And so we really have to and here’s one of the problems. I think the current administration kind of trolls a lot. And in trolling a lot, we become completely preoccupied with every little thing that they’re doing on a daily basis, which takes energy away from things we could be doing more locally. And so that’s why I tell them you don’t have to react to every single thing that’s being said. They’re playing a game, and we’re taking the bait. Mhmm. You have to be able and and again, the civil rights generation does this really well. They plan things out. They had strategic plans for how they were gonna just when they were gonna go out and, protest, they they didn’t just go out, run out, and go do it. They actually took the time to train people and to say, this is what our objective is. Here’s what we will do. Here’s what we won’t do. And we have to be a little more deliberate and resourceful when we look at where our powers. We got we have a lot of power. Look at the numbers when it comes to how much we consume and all those other things. The question is, do we have the will to do it in a more, structured way? And they were very structured and very strategic.
Lisa Fields: Yeah. One thing I think the the, far right has done well is their strategy. So I look back on, like, social in the last maybe eight eight years, and they’ll be, like if you look at, like, CNN or MSNBC or just social media feeds, and you’ll see, like, people doing, like, the responding to people on the far right in, like, in just a a witty manner online. And then sometimes we think, responding with WIC online leads to actual, like, transformation. Mhmm. Right? But then these these groups go in there. They’ll you’ll see them like, oh, we got you. And then they’ll go in their group and strategize, like, underground per se, and, like, create a whole project 2025. Like, you know what I’m saying? So, I mean, I know that’s been more in the making than just recent years, but they strategize. And even though I think their strategy is harmful to us, what we can learn is the power of strategy Yeah. To not just always, like, have to feel like, oh, I have to you could say the things that need to be said, but there has to be a strategy that goes along with the things you say. Yeah. Absolutely right. And we’ve come to this place where it’s we almost feel as if
Justin Giboney: saying it online is doing something. Right? As long as I put the right opinion out there online and I and I talk about it, I’ve actually accomplished something. And I’m I’m sorry. That’s you haven’t you haven’t actually accomplished something just by saying that, especially if you don’t have a larger strategy, behind it. And we’re missing I think we’re missing the market. And even in the even in the church, one of the things I I talk about too is we need people that we go to who are watchmen. Right? Where I mean, how many publications do we have? How many, you know, thinkers do we do we have that the church is actually making sure is are giving the information to the church in a certain way? If you think about who our watchmen are, our watchmen are secular. And so that’s why you see even some folks in the pulpit, what they’re saying is very, doesn’t seem very redemptive because the people that they listen to on how they should view a lot of these issues are secular people. And you have to Christians have to have watchmen and people who are giving them commentary who are Christian. Because just be I love my people, but just being black and seeing some issues the same way isn’t the same as having somebody who has the same value system as you and understands the importance of being redemptive within a conversation. If everybody we follow, if everybody in our algorithm is secular or if a lot if we have a lot of secular, what I’ve been calling, conflict entrepreneurs in our in our algorithm, our mindset and our spirit is gonna change and we’re not even gonna know it. And that’s one of the things that I’m work worried about. I don’t see the difference between a lot of Christians who are leaders and speaking on these issues and just secular activists and academics. They seem to be saying the exact same thing. I think that’s a problem. That doesn’t mean that we can’t make you know, we can’t work together at times, but there should be a very clear distinction in how we talk about certain things based on what we believe and on god’s promise.
Lisa Fields: Yeah. I think conflict entrepreneurs, me and Walter, Kim talked about this, is, like, really a problem that people don’t realize that people make money off your outrage. And so, like, you’re at home. You’re you’re liking and sharing it, but you actually have to work with people that are different. Yep. Like, your your life requires you to have more flexibility
Justin Giboney: and more That’s okay.
Lisa Fields: Conversations. And the people online that get paid by the conflict, they actually get money from being divided. That’s right. And so the more divisive they don’t have to deal with people that maybe think differently than because they’re getting paid by YouTube ads or, influencer marketing and all those things. Yeah. And so it’s it’s a, like, how would how am I letting the algorithm train me and what posture, like we don’t have it, particularly black people don’t have the pleasure or we don’t have the privilege of separating ourselves. Yes. We have to interact with people who are different. And so we have to think what strategy to interact with people in real life for the flourishing of, of ourselves and our people.
Justin Giboney: Yeah. I mean, you you you hit it on the head. There are people who and let me put it this way. Any influencer or leader that keeps you enraged, you cannot trust. Anytime because one of the things about these conflict entrepreneurs, when you’re enraged, you’re not thinking clearly. You can’t be redemptive. You can’t be rational. Right? You’re easily manipulated when you’re enraged. Why would you keep going back to somebody that’s always keeping you enraged? And that’s why I even look at, you know, some people are always sharing the worst examples on the other side. Let me tell you something about the Internet in the world. There’s always gonna be somebody on the other side saying something ignorant, something offensive, always. So just because somebody can find one of these people every day doesn’t mean, you know, we lose our sense of proximity and we lose our our sense of like how often something happens. Now there there’s a racial issue in our in our world, but you can’t go to the most extreme examples and keep repeatedly showing people those extreme examples. It warps their idea of what who their neighbor is and what their neighbor really believes, and we can never allow our neighbors just to be political abstracts. Right? And that’s what they become when we go and grab these worst examples and keep kinda pushing those out rather than having conversations with people who do have some issues, but also sometimes see eye to eye. And I think it’s causing the church in in our different divisions to give up on each other. And I think people at a point where these people are just never gonna get it, I’m giving up. But let me be very clear, I don’t see anywhere in the bible where we can just give up on a whole group of people because they’re, you know, they’re black and they don’t support Charlie Kirk or because they’re white evangelicals and they do. It may make for hard conversations. We can’t just give up. And that and that’s kinda been my message, lately.
Lisa Fields: Mhmm. I think the give up kind of comes from, the place of especially black people that have been in white evangelicalism for the duration of their life. Yep. For me and I think you, we’ve been in black church bases for the duration of our lives. And so there’s a sense of, like, a a detachment from the everyday kind of, like, having that lee leader. So it it brings about a a level of hopelessness.
Justin Giboney: Mhmm.
Lisa Fields: And I think that comes with anything. It’s like over time Yep. Hopelessness bruise in our lives. But I think in in your book, what do you talk about as it relates to hope that can help those folks?
Justin Giboney: Yeah. So let me be very clear. I don’t I don’t wanna downplay what people have gone through. I mean, people have gone through really tough things, had their whole livelihoods changed, have been slandered all over the Internet. My my message isn’t, oh, it’s not that bad. Get over it. No. No. It is some of this stuff is that bad. But what I want you to know is, and I wouldn’t what I want you to do and what I’ve been telling friends who are kinda going through some of this stuff is, you know what King was going through. You know what his generation was going through. Go back and listen to some of his speeches and tell me if you hear contempt. Think about how he’s he didn’t hold any punches, but he took the time to be artful in how he responded to things. And in his faith, part of having faith is truly believing that everybody is is redeemable even when you can’t even even when you can’t see it. And when you listen to him, when you listen to Fannie Lou Hamer, when you listen to, Fred Shuttlesworth, all these people, you read about, nanny Helen Burroughs. They went through just as much or more than we have. More than we have. Right? They still maintained that hope and that joy, not based on what their neighbor did, but based on what God had done for them and what God said was possible. That’s a that’s a that’s a test of faith. Whether or not I can look at, whether it’s black people who harm me in my community or look at white evangelicals and say, I’ve been harmed, but I’m not gonna give up. I’m not just gonna huddle up in my racial tribe or in my ideological tribe and say, forget you. It’s a matter of faith. Because at the day at the end of the day, we have to be striving for that. And and and the truth of the matter is, sometimes when you’ve gone through it so much, you do have to step back and you do have to heal. And I think that’s fine too. But I don’t see a justification for what I see as just a mass, I’m done. Sometimes I feel that way. I don’t see a justification for it. And through the example of the civil rights generation, I see people who fought through the urge and the fleshly desire to do that. Doesn’t mean it’s easy, but we gotta believe that it’s worth the initiative.
Lisa Fields: Yeah. And I think the like you said, even thinking about what can you do locally, one thing I, really admire about you and Summer and what you Summer is his wife for the those who are not no. Y’all moved into a neighborhood in Atlanta. Like, you and your friends, I don’t think a lot of people know this about you. Y’all moved into a neighborhood that was really, I think, a problematic neighborhood to just help, like, reinvigorate that neighborhood. To me, that’s that’s strategy. That’s, like, thinking about how we can help and uplift a community, how we could me and my friends it was a group of friends. Right? Yeah. They did it? You and your friends? Yep. Strategy to say we’re gonna rehabilitate this street and how that impacts
Justin Giboney: other people around you. Yeah. I mean, one of the things that because you what you you have that happened where it’s bad and it’s just pure gentrification and you’re kicking people out. But but a group of people in my area kinda went about it a different way. And it had its successes and it had its failures, but I remember when we first got there, there was a sister older sister down the street when me and my wife were looking at the house and she just stopped and she said, please move here because the kids in this neighborhood need to see people like you. Mhmm. And it was like, wow. You know, that that really hit us. And so we have tried to, you know, tried to be an example, tried to be mentors as you know, coaching little league football. You know, it takes a lot of time, but those kids need that. I mean, they need those those models. And, to your point, it’s more than just me talking about it. Right? I don’t even talk about that very much, but it is sitting down and having a strategy and doing what you can and realizing that every life matters. Right? So if you if you’re upset and you’re mad at the president or whoever, go teach a kid how to read. Do you know the impact you could have on that? And guess what? Ain’t nobody in Washington, DC stopping you from doing that. Mhmm. That’s a big impact that we all can have in a a few hours a week of putting in investing into kids. That’s the sort of thing that I’m talking about that we have a lot of power. There’s a lot of work to be done, and we just need to be, you know, be a little more, deliberate in going about it.
Lisa Fields: Yeah. There’s a new movie that came out. I went to see it with, Tianna Taylor, Leonardo DiCaprio, and, Regina Hall. And in this movie, I didn’t really think about it. I saw it, but I didn’t really think about it until I saw a tweet, a thread by someone. And in this movie, Tiana Taylor is like this big activist. She’s doing all these things, trying to, in a violent way, to stick it to, the oppressors. But then she gets pregnant and has a child, and she abandons her personal responsibilities. And the person in the that was critiquing the movie, he was like, this is so, this is like a a mirror to some of our current activism. Like, we will do these big things. Right? Yeah. That to to go against the oppressor. But when it comes to the day to day interpersonal relationships or just dealing with what you can handle, you mismanage those. Yeah. That is easier to do the big things that you think is impactful than to do,
Justin Giboney: like, take care of your personal responsibility. But but look at but look at this, though. And even even from another angle, for rightly, we get so outraged that somebody that doesn’t know us would do an injustice to us. How could this person do this to another human being? We’ll do that, and then do all type of infidelities to the people closest to us. Well, if that’s the case, then maybe we do know how people can do right? Do stuff though. Like, I really believe that other people and I’ve said this before. Other people’s sins doesn’t make them under you know, it doesn’t make them good or okay, are more relatable than we would like to think sometimes. If somebody somebody can do something unjust to me in the same way that I can do harm to people very close to me. And that’s and that’s part of what I was talking about too. You can’t just see other people as irredeemable and yourself as as okay. We do injustices internally within our community, within our family all the time. Somehow we feel like those aren’t as bad as somebody who doesn’t know us. I’m not so sure. And when we think about about it like that, not only I think does it make us more likely to do what we need to do to people closest to us, because you said this for a long time and I think it’s a great interpersonal point. It allows us as we try to force people to do justice by us who are further away, to do it with a different spirit behind it. Not let not less forcefully, but without hatred. Because we see our own brokenness. And and I don’t know if there’s a more important lesson that we gain from the civil rights generation. Even if you listened at the songs that they were singing, the black national anthem. Right? James Weldon Johnson, is around this Christian ethics so much. You know, him and himself was he was agnostic, but you can tell this whole song is influenced by the black church. And one of the things he says is like, basically telling God, don’t leave us to our own devices, lest we get drunk with the wine of the world and forgive me. We can turn corrupt too. And if we miss that, we’re more likely to do it. And and I see a process, unfortunately, of that happening. And I I think that’s why this book is so important to say, no. We’re gonna fight injustice, but we’re gonna do so while looking after the moral improvement of of ourselves. And that’s why I keep up bringing bringing up people like nanny Helen Burrows. She did both. She cared about women at women’s education, women getting opportunities, and she went to the black community and said, hey, here’s what we have to do better for ourselves. Mhmm. If we lose that, we’ve lost a lot.
Lisa Fields: Yeah. I think as you were talking, I think about, the children of Israel being freed from slavery, but the freedom is not freedom just unto itself. It’s freedom to worship God. And there’s after they’re out of slavery, God gives them ways in which to live. This is the law. I I don’t leave you just because you’ve been oppressed. I don’t leave you without instruction. That’s right. And, as you also, as you were talking, I thought about Nathan confronting David, and he gives him that story. And it’s like, David is all upset and he’s like, you the man. And I’ve been thinking a lot about how Trump is also a reflection of American immorality.
Justin Giboney: Oh, yeah.
Lisa Fields: Like, he is the antithesis. He is a re almost a mirror of what we’ve become as a society. Yep. And it’s almost as like God is forcing us to look in the mirror that, yes, that is wicked, but it is also a reflection of our human hearts. And it’s definitely exposing a lot. It’s exposing a lot on the the left and the right, and I think God’s God is working in the midst of all this chaos. Yep. Right? Yep. To
Justin Giboney: go ahead. Oh, yeah. And to your other point, when you were talking about Exodus, I wanna hit on that because that’s such a good point. And I actually use that that exact exact example in the book. One One thing we have to learn, and this is kind of one of my responses to liberation theology, which I think has some merits to it. But it’s to be free without direction is to be lost. Right? Like, you you just you’re free, but you’re lost. Or one other way to put it, I talk about in the book, sometimes we’re freeing people into the lion’s den. Freedom within itself, there’s something for from a biblical standpoint, freedom by itself is not the end goal. It’s and it’s all certainly not freedom just to do whatever you wanna do. Freedom to to worship God. Right? We understand that from Exodus. We have to add something on to that because as soon as they get free, the book that’s not even is is is half the of Exodus even over yet? No. They gotta get the law. They don’t actually get into the promised land because they have to be corrected. I mean, we can’t just end there, and that same lesson has to be with us as we engage culturally and politically.
Lisa Fields: Mhmm. For those who are in places like Chicago and, in California and LA and the the the the federal presence actually is having a direct impact on them with ICE rates and all of those things. What is some things that we can learn from your book that will help us in the in that press in those present realities?
Justin Giboney: Yeah. There’s there’s a I’ve seen a strain in in some of these, especially Chicago, where people are saying, well, it’s not our problem. They’re not us. They’re taking resources from us. It’s not our problem. That is so far from biblical. Right? You you never just fight for yourself, especially as much as the Bible talks about the migrant. It talks about the stranger and the sojourner. Now I’m I’m somebody who believes there should be rules around how people come in and out, and you you need to have order, because that’s what government’s for. But you don’t sit around and watch your neighbor be treated inhumanely. And so I do think churches aren’t a churches have the moral authority to step in and push back in against that in the right way. And I know, you know, friends like, you know, our friend, doctor Charlie Dates and all them have been kinda stepping in and doing that. I don’t see how the church sees that and doesn’t push to do something about it. Here’s the other thing though, if it’s if the pushback is not done in a way that’s not only strategic, but ethical and, prudent, then actually can be counterproductive. And you end up making Trump look like he’s actually the one creating order when he’s doing this in the most disorderly way possible. So the church has to step up. I really wanna push back against the idea like, oh, it’s not our people they’re taking from us. That’s not our way. That’s not our legacy. And so we have to push back and and do it in the right way. And I’m I’m proud to, you know, of those folks who are who are who are there doing just that.
Lisa Fields: Yeah. And it should, I think, for African Americans also like, being alarmed to think, especially with the the legalization of a racial profiling in in, in ICE raids. The thought about, like, also, they’re not only Hispanic migrants, but African Haitian. Migrants, Haitian. And those also things should be concerned for us. It’s like, they’re coming for that group, but, also, they could be,
Justin Giboney: coming for us. And so it’s like, you don’t see a group and be like, oh, it’s a issue when it’s happening to them. Like you said, it’s a issue because they’re made in the image of God. That’s right. And God calls us to care for those. That’s right. And even if it was, which it doesn’t seem to be as much or whatever reason happening to white immigrants, we should feel the same way. Right? Like, we should we should say this is something that we have to we have to engage, and that’s where our moral authority comes from. That’s where the difference between us and secular activists. We’re not respecter of persons. It doesn’t matter what your skin color was. It matters that you have human dignity, and I’m not gonna let that be violated. And so that’s a that’s an important part of it for sure.
Lisa Fields: Yeah. There are several other issues that are coming up the pipe because of the bill that’s passed. Health care, government workers are feeling it right now tremendously Yep. Because they’re not getting paid. I understand what the Democrats are doing in order to keep, as a person who has used the, the, what is it? Affordable care, system and marketplace. I’m definitely concerned about how that will impact people and their premiums doubling. What can the church do to help support families that when we see, our COO, Don, is also on the board of a a food bank, and he said they lost a lot of their resources with the new, bill. So food banks are filling it. All of those things, people in the next few years, I feel like the the wealth gap is gonna expand, and people are gonna be feeling it a lot more, and it’s disproportionately gonna impact us, in in ways that you talk about how the housing crisis impacted us. I can’t remember if that was the crisis that you felt like was one of the most It is. The greatest injustice.
Justin Giboney: To it to the 2008,
Lisa Fields: stock market crash. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. All of that has disproportionately impacted black and brown people financially. How how do you think the church can respond in those in those ways?
Justin Giboney: By communicating. Because we’re in a very cons consumeristic, culture. And what happens when you are such consumers? And this is I’m not just talking about black people. I’m talking about people in gen Americans in general. Is you become very individualistic. And it’s getting to a point I mean, you can talk about AI. You know what I’m saying? All these things. Well, we’re not gonna be able to be so individualistic with our resources. We’re gonna have to once again, the black church is gonna have to serve us somewhere where we are not only, you know, given our our regular offering, but we’re really giving resources and and coming together to make sure people are taken care of. And there’s some of that’s some of that’s going on now. I just think we have to redouble our efforts because it’s it’s hard to tell where the economy is going. There’s so many different factors that could impact it right now. The church has to be ready to step in and give messages to say, hey. We’ve gotta take care of each other, and we can’t wait until everything falls apart. Right? We’ve gotta start thinking and planning on for what we’re gonna do now. And so, yeah, I think there’s a message of not being so individualistic and consumer minded. And then there’s also the practical, steps to make sure that we can take care of people even if we’re not getting those government grants like we were before. Mhmm.
Lisa Fields: What other things about your book, Don’t Let Nobody Turn You Around, before we close that you would want our audience to know?
Justin Giboney: I’ve one of the big things is there’s been some revisionist history around the civil rights movement. The civil rights movement very clearly was a Christian movement, and it included other people, which was great. Right? We worked with other people, and that’s a big part of it too. But it was based on the authority of scripture. Everything they said and believed was based on god’s promises and really believing that. And unfortunately, some have co opted the movement and made it this kind of progressive movement. But if you go back and read the, what the denominations were saying and you read their publications, when the white church and white America started to split in this conservative versus progressive conflict, which is the culture war, black writers in the church were saying, you see what’s happening here. Both of these sides are wrong. Not equally necessarily on different things, but both there’s a there’s a you know, their feeling was basically, if we go to the right, we lose our bodies because of the injustice. If we go to the left, we lose our souls because they’re not believing in the authority of scripture. Neither of those are options. And so what I want people to understand is this was a movement that rose above the conservative versus progressive binary and created something that was much better and different and more faithful. And so if we get to the point, sure be in a party, if one side is completely wrong on something, I’m not saying play the fence and it doesn’t matter. I’m just saying be critical enough and bold enough not just to follow behind one side or the other. And there’s been so much talk about, well just choose a side because it’s so serious. No. Choose the right position. And if that right position haps happens to put me on a side and be allied with one or the other at a time or two, that’s fine. But I can’t just choose a side that gets six six out of 10 things, right and then just go along with them on the four that they get wrong. And so that’s what I want people see to see that there’s proof of concept that loving your enemy and seeing even your opponent as redeemable doesn’t stop you from fighting hard. It doesn’t make you weak. It doesn’t mean you’re not taking the issue seriously. And fighting for social justice does not mean dropping Christian orthodoxy. I can say this in theory, but I can also, as I just said, give you this proof of concept from one of the most effective movements that there’s ever been. And I wanted to expose I wanted the people to get away from these revisions of the history and let them see what this movement was really about. You take somebody like Fred Shuttlesworth, one day he’s doing the bus boycott. The next day, he’s going to a bunch of pastors and saying, hey, we need to close down this juke joint in our community because it’s taking too much money out of our community and it’s it’s and and it’s taking fathers out of the home in body bags. They did both of those. The second one is a more conservative thing. And some people just wouldn’t do it because maybe that might be something like, evangelicals would do. I’m not not gonna do it if it’s right just because it’s a conservative issue related to a group that I might not like. The other the first thing, the bus boycott’s a more progressive thing. Am I not gonna do it because it’s woke or it’s social justice? It’s right. And so that’s what I mean about choosing the right position, and we gotta just stop being followers. I I I’ll end with this. One of the biggest problems that we have right now, I think with some of our peers, is we’re just following the left. And we’re not making a unique contribution. We’re taking what they say and watering it down and maybe adding some Christian symbolism. We’re called to lead. And if we’re always following or choosing a side, we’re not leading. And I think that’s one of the things that needs to change. And the civil rights generation was a great example of that.
Lisa Fields: This just came to mind, and I said that was my last question, but this came to mind in light of what happened yesterday. And me and you’ve talked about this issue, sports betting. I think it’s gonna do a tremendous have a tremendous, like, I don’t think a lot of people in the church are speaking on this. I think the number of men and maybe some women, I don’t know as many women that sports bet, but, like, they’re using black influencers and black celebrities to put this into our communities. And for people who are already financially struggling, it’s gonna disproportionately impact our communities in ways that I think is gonna decimate our black men in ways that I’m very, very concerned about. Yeah. I haven’t seen a lot of people sound the alarm on how harmful that’s gonna be, for our communities who are already struggling.
Justin Giboney: Yeah. And, you know, I’ve been talking about it. Gambling seems like a harmless vice. It seems like a victimless vice. But the truth is, I think it pulls people in as we see. And this is hard for me because, you know, Toxie Bill is one of the dudes I looked up to all my life and everybody’s, innocent until proven guilty. But just to hear him in connection with that, you know, he’s from Denver. I’m from Denver. You know, that that was tough. As we see, it can pull you into a lot of sin spirals. When gambling was legalized and and became so easy that the touch I can just touch my phone and make a bet. Bankruptcies go up. Family bankruptcies go up way up. Savings go down. Domestic violence goes up. So when a man is betting and loses a lot of money, when he goes home, that impacts how he treats his wife, how he treats his kids. Gambling is not an innocent thing. It’s it’s it’s serious. And the crazy part is the way that it’s set up is these companies who run these these these sports gambling, they can basically cheat you. They can basically say, well, if you win too much, I’m just not gonna let you play anymore. And the whole point of gambling is that the house is gonna win. Right? So it’s this thing that we’re striving for and we’re doing and you’re not you don’t ever end up winning. So there’s a number of theological, you know, items that we can pull into that where there’s stewardship and how we look at money and mammon. But I want people to know that is not a habit that you wanna pick up. They made it seem very fun and easy and, not a really big deal. We’ll give you $10 if you, you know, do something now and you end up spending 2,000. Churches need to be talking about that, because it it has a major impact on the family. And we can talk about all this justice stuff, but if we’re throwing our money away, throwing our resources away, throwing our time away on things like that, to your point, it’s gonna have a major impact. I just want people to know that that’s a vice that is not harmless. It’s hurting a lot of people now even though it’s kind of insidious.
Lisa Fields: Yeah. And I know some some of the critics yesterday were saying, obviously, those the the black athletes that they put on 1st Street were not they used them, without talk talking about the corporations and the white led organizations that so I am aware. I’m not ignorant of that. And I am saying that the corporations behind it are using black faces to lure black people into the space. So we can also correct confront the the power structure and also talk to
Justin Giboney: to our people about, like, hey. Don’t get involved in this. Yeah. And I kinda skipped over that point. I wasn’t critiquing that point that you made. But but you’re right. The faces that they use as representatives of this, it has been problematic. I mean, they have a choice. They they chose to do it. We need to address that part. And to your point, yes, knowing that the structure behind it is usually bigger and not, controlled by us makes it a dynamic that that is even more problematic. You know, I’m with you on that. I agree.
Lisa Fields: Yeah. Well, thank you so much, Justin. This has been a rich conversation. Y’all get his book. Don’t let nobody turn you around. It’s available wherever books are sold. How can people get in contact with you, and how can they get in contact with some of the things? Tell them about some of the things that Ant Companion is doing right now Yeah. And how they can get plugged in. So you can always listen to me once a week on the Church Politics podcast. If you if something goes down in politics or in culture and you wanna know how to interpret it in a, through a biblical lens,
Justin Giboney: that’s what we do on a weekly basis. So you can check me out there. I’m on Instagram and x @atjustinegibbony. And then one of the big things that we’re doing now, you know, we’re not just talking about, hey, Christians. You need to look local and and see where your power’s at. We’ve actually started an initiative called Lit City, Literacy City, which is about childhood literacy. And we’re trying to get and I and I wanna give props where props are due. This is an idea that actually came from our brother Charlie Dates and what he’s doing in Chicago with the with the for black boys out there. We wanna get the church, starting in Atlanta together and say, hey. This is gonna be the church’s initiative across racial and partisan minds to serve our neighbors through providing, you know, literacy, training and tutoring. And so we’re so excited about that. Really just starting to get that going, getting our volunteers trained, bringing a whole bunch of, diverse churches together. And that’s one of what I want people to understand too. Just because somebody has a major disagreement with you on politics or something like that, doesn’t mean that within the right structure and framework that they won’t be helpful or have some of the same interest as you or want to help. And that’s something we lose to. Oh, you don’t like you disagree with me about this this issue. There’s nothing we can do together. It’s just not true. People still can work together, and people still have some good work that they can do even when we have some of these major disagreements that still need to be addressed.
Lisa Fields: Mhmm. Justin, I don’t wanna keep you too long. Do you have time for another question? Yep. So I just thought about this as you were talking. It actually happened. I I don’t know if you’ve been keeping up with what’s happening with Angela Rye and Joe Budden.
Justin Giboney: I have.
Lisa Fields: Uh-huh. And it it it it made me think about this gap in our communities about messaging. Right? And so Angela Rye has Native Land podcast, with, Bakari, who just joined, Tiffany, I can’t remember her last name, and, Andrew Gillum from Florida’s, former, governor or, a governor or, Cuban editorial candidate. Candidate. Yeah. Yeah. And, then you have the Joe Biden podcast and Mark Lamont Hill is on there. And there’s a chasm in messaging in in the Black community on how to reach Black men in particular. Yeah. And sometimes when you listen to, like, a native land, which I listen to native land, and I think they have some helpful things to say sometimes. And I’ve listened to the Joe Biden podcast, for entertainment. It’s a very different audience. Yes. And I think sometimes when we hear messaging from like a native land, we forget that the people that listen to Joe Budden podcast in the black community, there’s a wide gap. And I think Bakari addressed this when he joined Native Land. Like, black men are feeling unheard by people that are seeming to advocate for them on in a more democratic space. Right. I’m sure you’re aware of this. Sometimes we think we’re reaching people through certain influencers Yeah. When the people, like, that listen to Joe Budden wouldn’t listen to them. Yeah. So how do we become more diverse in understanding the the different
Justin Giboney: problems and the different things that appeal to different groups in our community. Yeah. I mean, black people aren’t a monolith. And so we’ll always especially now, it’s I don’t think we go back to all listening to the same group or anything. But I don’t think we have to do that. What we do have to do is be more conscious. And and I’m glad Angela I think she apologized for it because I think what her and Mark did initially was very classist. Because somebody didn’t use certain type of words or whatever, I it came off as they were lesser. And I thought that was wrong. And that’s one of the things I mean, like, internally, we have to see stuff like that. But I also think there’s another way to look at it too, where people feel like if I am more the Joe Budden podcast, I’m more authentic, I’m more this, I’m that, which is a sort of classism within itself. So I think we all have to commute I think we all have to give each other space to disagree, understand that not all black people are gonna be the same way or have the same ideas, but try to make make sure that we’re all striving for the better. And sometimes that means apologizing. Some of that times that’s meaning means having conversations together and saying, hey, well, maybe Joe Budden and Anzorai can come and have a conversate and disagree. But say at the end of the day, we wanna be in this moving in the same direction as far as caring about our people, make sure making sure they’re well informed and all those things. But we gotta avoid the classism. And that’s something even for the civil rights movement, you saw some of the denominationalism and the classism between, you know, people who were coming out of the holiness, you know, side of it and the, you know, the folks who are AME or Baptist. These were real issues that we had and people got hurt over them. But we have to be at least be able to talk to folks. And we can’t force, especially in this day and age, we we’re not gonna force everybody to agree on everything. It’s good to have some ideological diversity to make sure that it’s keeping us honest. And I think sometimes we miss that.
Lisa Fields: Yeah. I’m I’m glad you brought up the classism. The bougie black, which, you know, I’m I’m might identify more with, that that wants to sit out spend our summers in in Martha’s Vineyard and all the things with with while we say we’re championing it for every black person, sometimes we could be very disconnected, from what’s happening in the day to day, and that impacts our rhetoric. So I think that’s that’s one of the things I wanted to bring up. And Well, thank you, Justin. No. Go ahead. Go ahead. No. No. And I was gonna say, and we should understand why that hurts people and why it’s a problem. Because when we get treated like that outside of our race,
Justin Giboney: based on some of those same motivations or perspectives, you know, we know it doesn’t it doesn’t feel so good. So we need to be more, aware of that.
Lisa Fields: Yeah. Well, thank you, Justin, for joining us. This has been a rich conversation. Y’all get his book. Thank you for tuning in to another episode of the Jude three Project podcast. Remember, we’re helping you to know what you believe and why you believe it. Catch all our past episodes on jude3project.org. Remember, we cannot do what we do without generous support from people like you, so continue consider becoming a monthly partner, a one time giving giver by going to our website and hitting that donate tab. Until next time, grace and peace, and God bless.