Lisa Fields: Hello. Welcome to the j three project podcast. I'm your host, Lisa Fields. I'm the founder of the j three project.
Speaker 4: We're gonna go ahead and give it up, and I'll allow the panelists a chance to introduce themselves all individually. Yeah. Greg Hutchins, born and raised Tallahassee, Florida. I am the husband of one wife, Asia, who's sitting right there. Behind the camera, I can't see her, but I know she's there. Hey. So… Father of two kids, and I serve as a pastor of Four Oaks South. Damon Richardson,
Speaker 5: originally from Queens, New York, but now living in Atlanta, Georgia. I am a minister of the gospel of now about thirty four years. I, teach and, train church leaders, pastors, work in the field of apologetics, travel itinerantly, to, preach the word of God. And, my interest and particular focus is in what we're doing here tonight, and that is equipping believers and having conversations with people in our community about the reasonable and rationale of the Christian faith and why it is the most superior worldview and to give answers to our faith, why we believe what we believe. And so very glad to be here tonight.
Speaker 3: Good. That's good. Thank you, ladies and gentlemen, for those introductions. We're gonna go ahead and get right into our conversation with the first question. Alright? First question we have for today this evening is, many people say Christianity is a white man's religion. Is that true? When… What evidence shows that Christianity is not just a Western or a white religion?
Speaker 5: That's a that's a great question. I I get that question a lot, and, and there's a lot of evidence that actually shows that, of course, Christianity is not a white man's religion. And so I think the first place that we would, look at is what God's word has said about his intention to bring salvation, and that's found in Genesis 12. And so what we see in Genesis 12 is God promised a blessing to Abraham that he says will come on all nations. And so there's a theme throughout all scripture, that emphasizes this all nations, this universal blessing of salvation that God intends to bring on all people. The very same thing in Psalm 67. Let all the nations rejoice, and let them know your salvation. And so when we get to the New Testament, we see this played out, especially in the gospels. And so for instance, in Acts chapter two, when many of the Jews were coming back to Jerusalem for a annual celebration called Pentecost, we we know that they came from various places because the author Luke said that they came from, as far as Turkey, so he named many of these places, Cappadocia and, Pamphylia, Pontus, and he named places in Persia as well as far as East as Syria, and he talks about North Africa, Egypt, and Cyrene, that is near Libya, and and other places in Greece and, of course, in in Rome. And so these were areas where Jews lived outside of the region of Judea. But we also know that when the church started planting, Christianity started planting churches, they tended to follow these diasporic communities. These are communities where Jews tended to live outside of the area of Judea, and, ultimately, the Gentile people or non Jewish people that lived in those areas came to faith. And so long before Christianity really makes its way into Europe, it's in the Continent Of Asia, it's on the Continent Of Africa, and it's in the Persian Empire. And so the reality is is that Christianity has always had a global identity. It was never intended to be represented by one particular group, and so the the idea of it becoming a white man's religion is really more so related to colonization and some of the whitewashing effects that we see in the practice of Christianity in the West, but this is not how Christianity looked for most of its history. We've got at least sixteen hundred years of church history. Prior to, prior to our ancestors coming here via the Transatlantic slave trade, it had been in Africa for sixteen hundred years, even in West Africa, and, and nobody would have thought that Christianity was, a white man's religion, a production of, white European, you know, white European ideology, and so this this is really a new idea, and it's really not based on anything that we see in scripture or in in history.
Speaker 3: Yeah. That's good. Thank you for that. Thank you for that. You wanted to help me? I could… Always got something to say.
Speaker 4: I think one of the things that I find… I don't know if I'd even say compelling. It's not a decisive blow, but if we're asking if Christianity is intrinsically a white man's religion, if it was that, then why did slave masters have to edit it in order to get it to slaves? Why did they have to slice passages out of the bible and actually forbid slaves from reading it? Why were they so afraid of it if it was truly a white man's religion? If it was really a white man's religion, they would actually happily, as as the Bible is, hand it off. But they very, very, very, very, very much kind of wanted to hold the Bible back, forbid slaves from reading because they did not want them to get ahold of the text, for them to read what the text actually says. And so, if that was the case… If that wasn't the case, excuse me, then sure, it's a white man's religion. But that's not the case. They they hid it because it's not, and they knew it wasn't. That's right. And they were afraid that the slaves would discover that as they did. Absolutely. Yeah. Appreciate it. That's good because people could read, you know, like such as Harriet Tubman,
Speaker 3: Frederick Douglass, right, numerous other people. These are people that undeniably changed the course of history, so that's a great point. But I wanna get into that more. Why do you think that the perception of Christianity as a white man's religion persists, and what impact does that have on black believers today?
Lisa Fields: So, think one of the reasons that Christianity is seen as a white man's religion is because how Christianity has been misused. Yeah. So when we think about how slave masters use passages like slaves submit to your masters to to create… Make the slaves docile and, kind of try to manipulate them, I think that really causes us to think, well, Christianity is a white man's religion. And not only how it was used in in slavery, but how it's used sometimes today when we think about Christian nationalism. And so the misuse of it leads people to think this is a white man's religion. And I recently interviewed a Christian ethicist, doctor Sheryl Sanders, and she did her dissertation work on the slave narratives. And she said that as she was reading some slave narratives, she could see them giving apologetic because people would say, well, why were you… Why why would you adopt your enslavers' faith? And they would say these words, because I met Jesus. And because they had an encounter with Jesus, they knew how to differentiate a counterfeit Christianity Right. From authentic Christianity. That's good. It is what Frederick Douglass talks about in his appendix That's right. When he's saying, I hate the the women whipping, cradle plundering Christianity of this land. That's right. But he did find the Christianity of the bible attractive. They understood how to delineate between the two. And so there's this quote that I love that says, never judge a belief by its abuses. And the fact that there is a counterfeit is a testament to their being unauthentic because there is no… Think about money. There's no counterfeit money because… Just for no reason. There's counterfeit money because there's authentic money, and so anytime there's a counterfeit of something, it proves the existence of the authentic. And so when we think about the Christian faith, we understand the cultural reasons of the day, why people would believe that Christianity is white man's religion, because people have used it and abused it and manipulated, but that doesn't strip the truth of Christianity from from that. Absolutely.
Speaker 5: I… I'd like to read a a quote from Marcus Garvey, and there's a book called The Marcus Garvey and the Universal Negro Improvement Association papers. And so this takes all of, Marcus Garvey's, speeches and his, written works, and it compiles them together. And he he he says essentially the very same thing that Frederick Douglass had said essentially a century before when he talked about, I recognize the widest possible difference between the Christianity of Christ, that is biblical Christianity, and the Christianity as practiced in this land. But here's what Marcus Garvey says. He says, I believe in God the father, God the son, and God the holy spirit. I endorse the Nicene Creed. That came out of Africa, by the way. I believe that Jesus died for me. I believe that God lives for me as for all men, and no condition you can impose upon me by deceiving me about Christianity will cause me to doubt Jesus Christ and to doubt God. I shall never hold Christ responsible for the commercialization of Christianity by the heartless men who adopt it as the easiest means of fooling and robbing other people out of their land and country. And so we we we almost insult the integrity and the intelligence of, our earlier brothers and sisters who embraced Christianity in that we are almost saying that they could not recognize and make the proper distinctions between mis… Misappropriation and misrepresentation of Christianity that they considered bogus, they considered it fraudulent, and to to distinguish that from what biblical Christianity actually looked like. They were able to make those distinctions, and they were not guilty essentially of, the proverbial throwing the the baby out with the bathwater. So they they had a proper and prophetic critique for those misrepresentations that supported white supremacy and slavery, and yet at the very same time, they apologetically defended what biblical Christianity is and what it should look like, without allowing the two to become conflated in the way that we often see today where people see may… Maybe many of these misrepresentations with Christian nationalism and how bad that looks and says, you know what? I'm just done with all of Christianity. When in reality, that is a gross misrepresentation and a caricature of what Christianity really is.
Speaker 4: Yeah. And I would would amen everything that both Lisa and Damon had just said. And I think that in addition to it… Another two things. One is that we can have a bad habit that creates the reality that we're afraid of. And by that, what I mean is that if we say that Christianity is a white man's religion, which it's not, and then let white people interpret what Christianity is on their own terms, we're making the thing happen that we're claiming has happened. Yeah. Because we ourselves are refusing to engage it on terms of Christianity. That's right. And it ends up creating the very thing we're afraid of. The second thing is that… More along that line is the way that Christianity oftentimes is interpreted and the history of the Christian church is interpreted, people just completely, as Eamon alluded to, whitewash the history of Christianity. It is phenomenal, both the history of African people in the Bible and non white people in the Bible, which is pretty much 99 of them. And… But, the African president of the Bible particularly is actually quite prominent. J Daniel Hayes has a book called From Every People and Nation, where he just tracks the development and the… Just the ethnicities that are mentioned in the Bible. And, like, instance, Moses' wife is an African woman. Right. Right? From the earliest days of the formation of the people of Israel, African people are present. The first Gentile converted in the gospel… I mean, in the book of Acts is an African, is an Ethiopian eunuch who goes and takes the gospel back to Africa, to Ethiopia. That's why Damon can say something like, It's been sixteen hundred years since the gospel… Because he got it in Acts eight and took it back to where it was. The way that Christian theology was developed was heavily dependent on African people. Tertullian, who coined the language of Trinity, he didn't make the reality of, he coined the language of it, is a North African. The Protestant Reformation owes much of its theology to the church father Augustine, who is a North African. And, unfortunately, if you Google Augustine's picture, you will not find a brown skinned or dark skinned man. And that's that's part of what I mean. If we just let people have that and just say, oh, well, they calling him white. And it's like, well, but he ain't white, though. And if we let them set the terms for it, we are we are, in a sense, lobbing it up and saying, well, make it a white man's religion instead of fighting for the veracity and the truth of what's really real and letting that be known. And so… And sometimes… Let me just say this, too, some of us, it's become a white man's religion to us because we brought these questions to people and they've dismissed them and told us it wasn't And if that's happened to you, I'm sorry. And as a clergyman, I speak on behalf of the other pastors have done that and say, I'm sorry, we've done you wrong, because it's inappropriate. And that just perpetuates the lie again, to say, Well, if they won't answer my question, then maybe that's really… That really is what it is. So… Right. Thank
Speaker 3: you for your answers. Alright? So, since we're talking about Christianity, we're talking about Jesus, right, let's just go back to the basics. What is the gospel? What is the gospel and how has the gospel message been distorted and misused in modern generations and churches?
Speaker 5: That's for anybody. Well, yeah. I'll start with… The word gospel carries… There are at least three or four different nuances of what gospel meant. And so one way to look at that is is that the early church writers were using a word that was already a very popular word in the Greco Roman or the Mediterranean world. So this was not a word that they made up. This was a word that already carried significant meaning. And and so just grammatically, the word gospel means good news or to bring the good news. And so, for instance, if you look at many of the earlier Greek works that predates Christianity, you could see that when messengers would bring word of the victory in wars, they would… It would say that they were bringing euangelion, that is bringing good news of victory. And and so then later, when the Romans came to power, the word euangelion or gospel became associated actually with the ascension or the rise of Roman kings and and emperors. And their their rise to power was associated with the idea of good news because their coming to power, even their birth, was thought of as good news because it was thought to have brought peace to the world, providence to the world, protection, and even salvation. So for instance, there's an archaeological there's an archaeological finding called the Preen calendar inscription, and this exist… This literally was made of stone. It exists today. It's in the the British Museum of Archaeology. It announced the birth of Augustus Caesar, and it literally uses some of the same language that you find in Mark or Luke. It says that this is the beginning of good news, and it talks about how his birth was going to bring a shift in the in the calendar, the way that we even saw the calendar. It talked to… It used the same terms. It said that he was a savior, that he was lord, that he was god. These are all terms that are referred to by Christ. And so when the early church used the word gospel, it was it it was revolutionary, and it was essentially subversive even. And this is why the early church was persecuted because they were saying the real true king Yes. Not not one that leads Rome, but the real king of kings is Jesus. Real true provision and real peace doesn't come from the Caesars. It comes from Christ. It comes from Jesus. And not only that, but real salvation, real hope and expectation and and real joy, and all these things actually come from Jesus. And so in reality, the gospels was was like a protest. And, and so when the early church was preaching it, it not only, announced hope and and peace and joy and salvation, but it was a protest against the idea of emperor worship. And so that's really more of the grammatical understanding of the word gospel. But as it was preached in the early church from a message standpoint, the gospel announced the fact that Jesus came to do something about the sinfulness of all humanity. Our sins separated us from God, from fellowship. And so God's plan was to send his son. This is what they preached, was to send his son into the world to be a representative, an archetypal human, to live perfectly in obedience to his father, to do what Adam failed to do. Adam disobeyed God. Christ came and obeyed God the father perfectly all the way up to his sacrificial death on the cross. And the reason his death on the cross is such good news is is that the penalty on the… And the punishment that we all deserved as a result of Adam's sin was poured out on Christ in our stead. And so Jesus becomes the judgment that we actually deserve. And so the exchange in that is that if we just believe on him, if we accept him as a result of the announcement of the good news, in exchange for that, he gives us eternal life or salvation. This is what they proclaimed not only in Jerusalem and Judea, but outside of that, throughout all of Asia or throughout Africa, and this is what turned the world upside down. This is what is called the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Speaker 3: Hey. Hey. Oh. Oh, brother. Damn. You're finna turn us up in here. You're finna have churches. I'm a preacher, so I'm I'm a preacher. It's alright. It's alright. It's alright. You had it year right. Yeah. I just wanna…
Speaker 4: I can't really add to that other than to say, one of the beautiful things about the gospel is that there is a simplicity to it, but there's a profoundness to it. There's a statement that says the gospel is shallow enough for any kid to play in, it's deep enough to where an elephant can touch the bottom. And one of the beauties of that is you can just turn the gospel and look at it from a different angle, right? And so, I'm gonna just go a different angle, right? So, another perspective on the gospel is the gospel is the good news that the reign of God has broken in to this… Has… Not even broken in, but interrupted this place, this reign of sin, Satan, and death and brought the fulfillment of all of God's promises through the life and death and resurrection of Jesus. And one of the reasons that that's important, particularly for the way that we as black people think about the gospel is that God intended from Genesis… Go on Genesis one, God intended for his kingdom to be made manifest on earth in a particular way, and that was through humanity. That's what it meant to be made in the image of God. That's part of what it meant is that God made you to be a king, a queen in his image. Right? We think that there are Pan African in the black conscious community that this king and queen language originated, but Moses had penned that quite a while ago. And the problem is is that we lost our capacity to effectively image the reign of God in the world because we decided to submit to a different king. Right. Namely, the king of Satan in our sin. That's what we did. And so, God, in his kindness, decided to come down himself in the person of Jesus Christ. And remember Jesus' message if you're reading the gospels. Jesus says, the kingdom of heaven or the kingdom of God is at hand. The reign of God is coming and crashing into this world That's right. That is marked by the reign of Satan, sin, and death. And everything wrong in the world is because the world exists under the reign of Satan, sin, and death. So Jesus comes as the true Adam, as my brother just said, as the person who is both… He's bringing the divine rain down as a human. One, to restore the kingdom of God, but doing it through restoring humanity back to the father Yeah. And restoring the dignity and glory that was intended for all of us as children of God, as kings and priests in his world. That's it. And we receive that restoration of identity through relationship with him. Now that because Jesus has died on the cross, Colossians goes on to say that because Jesus has canceled the record of debt that stood against us with his legal demands, that's just the guilt that you you owe punishment for, Jesus took that to the cross. Not only has he dealt with your sin before God, but he's also disarmed these spiritual rulers and authorities That's right. By triumphing over them in the cross, which means that Satan's grip on you, the power of the demonic and dark spirituality is upon you if you're in Christ, can be… Is now nullified by the power of the cross. And one day… It's already true that Jesus is making all things new. But one day, we're going to see the full effects of that when Jesus splits the sky, touches earth, and literally does renew everything, and sin will be, as I like to say, will be a half remembered nightmare forever.
Speaker 3: Yes, indeed.
Lisa Fields: I have nothing to add.
Speaker 4: Oh, I did wanna say one other thing, because you asked the second question. My bad. You asked how was it distorted or misused. Yes. And there's a lot of things I can say. I'm gonna be brief on this one. I think three things, one is that people forget that it's historic, supreme, and sufficient. Okay? So, the gospel is not just a spiritual message. It's one of the differences, actually, between Christianity and large amount of religions and spirituality, is Christianity in the New Testament is making a historical claim that God became man in an actual person who was documented to have lived, named Jesus, that Jesus, as the Apostle's Creed says, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried, right? And if it's not historic, we're… This whole thing is pointless. Okay? So, that's one thing. That's right. Another thing is that the gospel is supreme. It's not something that's intended to be a means for you to get something else. There is nothing else, which if we thought about what the gospel is, which is God giving himself for us that he might give himself to us, then it's like, oh, well, yeah, there's nothing else I could get aside from that. Right? So, the gospel is meant to have first priority. Right? And it's also sufficient, meaning that it's sufficient not only to make us right with God, but to experience all that God has for us on this side and to bring us safely to the next. That's yours. We tend to get de centered off of all of that sometimes.
Lisa Fields: For the second part, I forgot about the second part… Second part of the question. When we talk about distortion, when I hear a lot of people talking about the gospel and Christianity, there's this idea in some spaces that Christianity teaches us it's just about the the next life. Mhmm. Right. The sweet buy and buy, and it creates a docileness in us that doesn't allow us to fight for our liberties in this life. That's it. And that's one of the ways that it's been misused Absolutely. To to not let us think about, as doctor Umar said, everybody gets their heaven here, and we have to wait till the next life. Yeah. And so there's this idea that Christianity is just a pacifier.
Speaker 6: That's right.
Lisa Fields: Yeah. But when we see that God is not just about us experiencing freedom in the next life. Uh-huh. Right. He's also about us having abundant life here. That's good. That's good. And I'm not talking about some, like, prosperity abundant life. Absolutely. But there is peace, joy, and there are promises that he has for the here and now that aren't just reserved for the life to come. And so speaking to the misuse of the gospel message, I would say that I love the fact that God not only cares about the slavery of sin but the sin of slavery, And he wants to liberate us from both. So when we see that god is is… What we see at the beginning of scripture, god is liberating a whole group of people Mhmm. From bondage and slavery. And so liberation from slavery is important to him. And so I think that's just ways in which it's been misused for people to say, like, you cannot trust this gospel message. It is to… In a in… To say that it's both, it's and, it is… It has social implications and personal piety implications. God cares about your holiness, how you live, your day to day. Mhmm. That is very important. And he also cares about the implications of how those systems we create impact society. That's right. And so,
Speaker 3: I just wanted to insert that. No. That's really good. I really appreciate this conversation because you all talked about exodus. It's so convenient, you know, how people will dismiss that and act like it didn't happen. But even now, some of the greatest movements that have come through… Think about the the underground railroad. Right? You think about everything that the civil rights movement accomplished. Right? The legislation that moved. You think about the UNIA. Right? Everything they were they were able to accomplish all came into a v… Through the vehicle of Christian ideals, the gospel message. And so I really appreciate you all unpacking that. So we're gonna we're gonna pivot here now, and we're gonna talk about church. Alright? I know that a lot of people in my generation, they think of church, right, the concept of it or the practice of going to church as something, you know, mundane or something minor. Right? Why is it important for people who believe in the gospel, believers, to be a part of a church or to attend church? And then, what use is the church, right, to move forward the body of Christ? Specifically, I would aim this question to everybody but a younger generation who thinks of church as secondary.
Speaker 5: I'll I'll I'll start the answer to that question. So, you know, one of the reasons that we are having some challenges in terms of the way that we perceive church, I think one of it, one of those reasons is our cultural ways of thinking in an American sense. And so, one of the ideals and values of American culture is this sense of rugged individualism. Right? And, you can hear it with all of its kind of slogans and mantras, you know, you gotta get the bag, right, or, you know, you gotta get what's yours, you know. And, so, we have essentially been conditioned to think about our needs first, but in the world of early Christianity and in much of the Christian world, they didn't think individually, they thought communally. So when you read these letters in the New Testament, they're written to entire churches. And when they're talking about blessing and when they're talking about serving and walking out their faith, they're talking there the is a plurality to those pronouns, you. It's it's not about one person, and and so you could see very early the way Christianity embraced that. Right at the very beginning of its inception in Acts two, it talks about how they continued to gather and to learn from the apostles, but it said that they also looked after the needs that each person had. And so one of the reasons why church is important is, one, is our mission, that is discipleship. That's called the Great Commission. That's not something that one person can do. Discipleship happens in community. But not only does discipleship happen in community, but, the fact that we teach, that we learn and grow in community… Excuse me, that, accountability occurs, the way that we serve God together. So, for instance, the way that they looked after each other's needs is that they sold some of the things that they owned and then brought the, the dividends of that, the, you know, the receipts, the monies that they had collected to ensure that the welfare of widows and orphans and people in their community were taken care of. And so there is this theme throughout all of the New Testament that, we hear emphasized, and that is doing good works. In fact, Paul says to the Ephesian church, he says that god has ordained the church to do good works from before the foundation of the world. So the church understood the importance of coming together, not just for teaching, not just for worship, but so that they could benefit one another. And so and so, being edified or built up in the faith didn't happen because you were reading some book in your in your in in your library or in your room. It happened because you came together with a group of people. And even when you look at communion, for instance, in first Corinthians chapter twelve, five times Paul says, and when you come together and take communion. And so you could see that coming together was a very important aspect of how they lived out their faith. Being accountable to other spiritual leaders and elders so that they could watch over. This is why titles like pastor, the Greek word poemain, or even the word bishop, the the Greek word episkopos, these words were all related to the kind of leadership, and they were taken from the fact that many of these Jews and Gentiles grew up in what's called agrarian societies. So they saw shepherding. And and so these were the kinds of terminologies that were first employed in the early church, and that is is that spiritual leaders are shepherding, leading, and watching over your soul. And so a shepherd would not sleep at night. They had to be awake so that they could watch over to make sure that the sheep were not attacked by predators. They slept during the day when there was no danger. So that was the very word that the New Testament writers grabbed to say that these bishops are looking over you. Well, you… They can't watch over. They can't watch out for you and and warn you of spiritual dangers if you don't come together. They they can't help you from all of the ideological predators that are on, TikTok and YouTube and all over the place if you don't come together and gather together with other believers. And then, lastly, Christ is invested in the church, Ephesians chapter three, gifts. And when you separate yourself, you are robbing somebody else of your gift. Good. Not only are you not benefiting from others… The gifts of others, but you are robbing others of the gifts that you actually have. And so the church, has been, will be, and will always be essential to the implications of the gospel. What it means to live out our faith, God has chosen the church to be the means through which, the faith of Jesus Christ is actually expressed
Lisa Fields: and lived out. That's good. That's good. That's great. I would I would add to it that church is really one of the ways in which god provides us with the inner healing that we're looking for. That's right. James says, confess your faults one to another, pray for one another that you may be healed. Yes. My dad says it like this, for… Confession to God brings forgiveness of sin, confession to people brings healing. Mhmm. Yep. And you may have been hurt in community Mhmm. That's why most people avoid church because they've had… There's been a place where they've experienced deep pains. But I've discovered in my life, practically, and we see this throughout scripture, that your healing that you're longing for does not come in isolation. That's right. It comes in community, and that community often is the body of Christ. And it may not be the same church. There might be churches that you were part of that were deeply unhealthy, but there is a a body of believers that are not perfect but are people that you're called to be in relationship with if you want to grow. Yes, sir. And so I know that when we think about church and usually the avoidance of church is to protect ourselves from pain, But in an effort to protect ourselves from pain, we prevent ourselves from healing. Mhmm. And so the healing that you're looking for, the inner peace that you're longing for, is a product of communal relationships. Most of us in this room know what it's like to long for peace. Mercy. We know what it's like to not have the peace of God. We know what it's like to experience anxiety and be gripped by fear to the point where it paralyzes us. And we're all searching for peace, and it seems to constantly be evading us. That's it. But what I've discovered about peace is that peace is not just the inner feeling of serenity Mhmm. But it has three tiers. It is peace with God, which is the work that Jesus has done on the cross that we have to accept. So that is the work that he's done for us so that we may be able to confess our sins to him, to have peace with him. But then there's a second part that we don't like. It's peace with people, which is the work we have to do. That's right. It is the work of forgiveness and reconciliation and restoring relationships. And I've discovered that sometimes that god strips us of the inner peace that we're looking for, the serenity
Speaker 4: Mhmm.
Lisa Fields: When we don't accept his work and we we don't do our work. And so all of the the inner peace that you're looking for could be tied into the community that you're avoiding. Wow. And so I wanna encourage you. I know it may be difficult, but god is calling us to lean into community That's right. If we want to experience freedom and peace.
Speaker 3: That's good. That's
Speaker 4: good. That's really good. The only only thing I think I would add to that is that most of the primary metaphors for what a Christian is are organic, meaning they're a part that finds its meaning in a whole. So, one family member is not the family. One stone is not the building. One body part is not the body. And so, you… You cannot live out the fullness of your Christian identity and what God intends for you by yourself because what God intends for you is fulfilled to in the confines of meaningful connection with other Christians. And you cannot experience… And, again, one citizen does not make a nation, does not make a kingdom. And so, as my brother and sister both said, I hope you all are realizing that God has a way for you to fulfill the identity he has for you and to fulfill the purpose that he has for you in the church. Do you realize that all throughout, from the beginning of God's plan, he has always decided to get his work done through a group of people? It's never just been one dude, even when it could have been one dude, Jesus, and there wasn't nobody on that cross but him. But aside from that, he had a gang of people going with him. So, whether you go Adam and Eve who were supposed to be fruitful and multiply, you go Abraham and his offspring, you go to nation of Israel, you go to Jesus and his disciples, you go to church, God is always beginning his work done through a group of people, and he intends to use you as a part of that. And I cannot think of a purpose more lofty and meaningful than that. So your identity and your purpose find real fulfillment. And that don't just mean you gotta be a preacher. That means that when you show up as a small business owner or a teacher or a stay at home mom or even a person that's actually in need, God can use you to meet the needs of other people and demonstrate and display his glory in a way that he could not if you're not there. So… That's
Speaker 3: so good, man. It's like… This is a very rich conversation, and it's funny. We were just talking about… In class today, we were talking about the different components of black culture or African culture that has been stripped because of racism, and community is one of those things. That's a big… That's something God teaches. The Bible teaches. Right? But whether it be, you know, the black church, whether it be the cookout, right, whether it be Sunday dinners, community, or the village, you know, community is a large part of our culture and it's now vilified. Right? But it's something God has been teaching all along. That's that's really good. Talking about this generation and its perceptions, new age practices like sage burning, crystals, and astrology are becoming more popular among young people. Why do you think this is, and how does the bible… How does the buy… The bible offer the real answers to the peace that people are looking for through these things?
Lisa Fields: Yeah. I think these practices are are appealing because people are trying to find something that works. The reason we named this panel Does Christianity Work? Is because people are trying to figure out, is this a actual solution to my problem? We are in a culture where when we hear about a product, the first thing we do is look at the reviews. When when somebody tells me about a product, I go to the reviews. When I'm looking at Amazon, we are reviewer a review driven culture. And, unfortunately, the Christian reviews aren't always the best. And so we're like, I looked at the reviews, and it ain't looking too good, so I need to find another product. And that's what what the appeal for sage crystals astrology is. It's like, I'm just looking for something that works. I'm looking for something that is gonna give me some form of peace. And, unfortunately, we are chasing feelings and not truth. And when you chase feelings and not truth, you will always be led into deception.
Speaker 4: That's it. So
Lisa Fields: does this make me feel good? Right. Does it seemingly absorb the negative energy? You know, the crystals that you have to put in in your room for those who who use crystals, and it absorbs the negative energy from the space. And for some, they claim that it makes them feel better, that it makes their atmosphere better. But, also, they testify that when the crystals absorb the negative energy, the power of the crystal gets weak. So they have to charge it, and they say the best place to charge it is in sunlight or moonlight. Come on now. Have you ever heard this? Some may have… Y'all may have used crystals in the room. You charge in sunlight and moonlight because the negativity has absorbed the crystal of its power, so it needs a recharge from the sun. Now I think, you know, it's interesting that people would identify with this idea that a crystal would take away their negative energy, but I wanna just point us to something greater. Yeah. Right. Right? I understand what you're looking for in these practices, but what if there was a god that wasn't absorbed by your negative energy, wasn't drained by negative energy and didn't need to be recharged? In fact, what you use to recharge your crystal, he created. And so I think what we're searching for is a noble desire. Yes. But the solutions are severely underequipped to handle the problem. That's right. Yeah. And so when it comes to peace, we already talked about what peace is, and you're not gonna find it in these practices. That's it. They may give you temporal sense of help, but what what is it? The the pills that you take and you think you're taking something, but it's Placebo. Placebo. It gives you a placebo effect. Right. That's it. There's no actual long lasting change. That's exactly And so I just wanna encourage us to reach higher Right. That god has provided something much more greater for us Christ. Through the person of Christ Good. Than than these things that we're we're drifting towards.
Speaker 5: I wanna echo what you were saying there about the the promise of fulfillment and satisfaction that things like crystals and burning sage and alternative spirituality that it promises. A French philosopher by the name of Blaise Pascal, he said that inside of every person is a god shaped vacuum that cannot be filled by anything other than the one who created you. And so, in effect, when we are looking to many of these kinds of forms of spirituality, the fact that we are looking is in that mission that we are empty, that we have a need. We intrinsically know this. One of the psalmists said, As the heart, which is a particular species of deer found in the Eastern Hemisphere, says, As the heart panteth for the water brooks, so my soul longs after you, O God. The interesting thing is is that the pant was a particular sound that this species made as it detected where water was. So it had a unique ability to be able to sense water out in the most arid conditions. And so the very internal panting was evidence that there was water out there that could satisfy it. Mhmm. The problem is is that we're just looking to the wrong things. It's like what Kenny Rogers… Y'all are not old enough for that, but Kenny Rogers, the country music singer, he used to say looking for love in all of the wrong places. And so we're really looking to things even that God created, as as Lisa mentioned, rather than looking to the creator of those things. And so Isaiah the prophet put it this way in chapter eight verse nine. I'll just read this. He says, when they say to you, inquire of mediums and spiritists who chirp and mutter, shouldn't a people inquire of their God? Should they inquire of the dead on behalf of the living? And then he says in verse 20, go to God's instruction and testimony. And this is one of the reasons why God gets so upset when his people are turning to these alternative and, forms of spirituality, necromancer is promising to speak to your dead relatives and all these things. What God is saying is, if you if you wanna know something, you ought to turn to me. But when you're going away from me to look for these kinds of answers, not only are you not going to find those answers, you're going to find the wrong answers that are going to lead you away from me. So so there's really deception. It it it looks promising, but there's really deception behind those doors. They only lead to greater spiritual thirst and emptiness. They do not bring any real true genuine satisfaction and fulfillment. And on top of that, they open doors to spiritual oppression and bondage. So you think you think that you're just cleaning the air out in your house, and you're creating avenues for demonic traffic. Right? So that there there is a spiritual worldview in scripture, and while God is a spirit, he's not the only spirit being in the in the in the spirit world. John the apostle said that there are many spirits going out into the world. And so when you turn to forms of spirituality that are not legal and sanctioned by God, not only are you turning away from God, but you're really turning towards these evil kinds of spirits who really desire to just hold your life in bondage. It it's not It it it may look cute. It may look appealing, especially as many pop artists and people in pop culture are embracing it more and more. African traditional religions and Indian spirituality and all of this other stuff, but the reality is is that it's really deception. The only true fulfillment is found in the person and work of Jesus Christ. I
Speaker 4: think that I amen everything my brother and sister just said. I think that there is an understandable curiosity. There's a philosopher named Charles Taylor who wrote a book called A Secular Age, and he's talking about the phenomenon of what the West is like now that so many West societies have kicked God out of how they think about the world. And one of the things… One of the phenomenon he talks about calls it the imminent frame in a buffer itself, is basically saying, There's no such thing as transcendence. There's just what I can see and feel and experience. And I can interpret all that based on the claims of science. And the problem is, because God has placed eternity in the heart of man, we keep looking for transcendence, but the problem is we start looking for transcendence in the stuff down here, and then we don't even know what it is because we've already excused it away. And so, we live in a society that's very science centric, and so we don't recognize always what's happening. There's an ignorance to us of what's happening spiritually, as my brother just talked about. One of the things you should note about the spiritual worldview of the Bible is that there are no non personal spiritual forces. What I mean by that is there is not a cleansing energy. Energy in the Bible is not a thing. Forces in the Bible and the spiritual realm are personified. So if… And if a space gets cleansed, a person cleansed it. Not all persons are human. They're a nonhuman person. The spirit is a nonhuman person. And we don't realize we are interacting. We don't realize, we might not even intend to, but Satan is super petty and he does not care what you intend to do. And so, I think there's an ignorance, there's a curiosity there. And I think, again, like my brother… Like my sister said, there's real pain that we're dealing with and we're trying to find a solution for. And, unfortunately, sometimes we do not realize the sufficiency of the name of Jesus. The whole book of Colossians, a short book, but the point of the book of Colossians is this, the Colossian Christians were being tempted and they were asking themselves, Do I have enough to experience the fullness of what spiritual experience is supposed to be? And they have begun to go to to angels and to different spiritual practices, and the apostle Paul is just calling them back to, like, bruh, don't y'all remember who y'all got when y'all got Christ? And you were filled, you were made complete in him. And so he's reminding them of this. But one of the things he's saying is that, fam, there's power in the name of Jesus. You can… The name of Jesus will cleanse a space way better than sage. And it don't it don't take multiple application. Now don't go open up another door, but even if you do, the name of Jesus still works. It's nice, I'm telling you. And there is a… There is not only an ignorance to us outside of the church, but I think sometimes there's an ignorance to us inside of the church to recognize the sufficiency and authority in the name of Jesus and the fact that Jesus has delegated authority to his… He's given us what one theologian called the power… Spiritual power of attorney to be able to interact with the opposition that we face. We don't go seeking spiritual opposition, but when it's brought to us and it comes to our front door, we don't have to be afraid of it in Christ. And, man, the peace that so many of us experience, most in my experience, lots of people that are going to these practices are really hurting. They've experienced pain. They've experienced abuse. They have internal torment, and they do not know how to deal with it. And so they go to… They understandably go to a spiritual practice, but friend, there is no spiritual, emotional ailment that you have that Jesus cannot and has not already dealt with. Is it guilt? He has placed it on the cross. Is it shame? He was stricken naked and exposed on the cross for your sin. Is it loneliness? He's inviting you into the family of God. Is it a sense of inferiority? He sits you with him in the heavenly places. Is it powerlessness? Is it weakness? Yeah, you are weak. To be human is to be vulnerable, but his strength is made perfect in the place where you're weak. And we recognize, again, the sufficiency of what God has graciously bestowed on us when he gave us Jesus. And, again, part of that is because we're not a part of local churches where people can disciple us into the cosmic panorama of the vastness of all that God gave us in Christ. And because of that, we we search and we settle, as our sister said, for insufficient and deficient solutions.
Speaker 3: Yeah. That's it. That's really good. That's really good. Now we are landing the plane, and it's funny because you all answered this last question and everything that you all said. I'm gonna ask it, and when I ask that question, we'll open it up for final words as well. So the last question is, many young people turn to spirituality for peace, for healing, and mental health support. How does the Bible provide the real solution for these needs? Again, you all answered that question pretty nicely, but we'll open it up for answers and final words.
Speaker 4: I was talking to a friend, a really good friend of mine. We walked one another through lots of pain, and he was noticing something that surfaced in him in particular context. He was… And this is what I mean by one of these things. Because he's been walking with the Lord for a while, he knows that when that pain comes up, he can process it with Jesus. And so, as he's processing it, he realizes that… And I know his story, I know his family, he's one of my closest friends, because of the way that his father did not pay attention to him, there was a desire for him to be impressive so that other people would pay attention to him, right? And that's something that may seem very, very mundane but that lies for him. For him, that was kind of a keystone moment because he realized that was driving a lot of his behavior. And it was such a blessing as both his friend and brother in that moment to remember so many of the verses to tell him, Brother, you remember how the text says, The eye of the Lord is on those who fear him, on those who hope in his steadfast love? You remember how in Isaiah, God asked Israel, How could I forget you? Right? A mother might… A nursing mother might forget her young, which doesn't happen. But he said, That will happen before I forget you. Right? I've graven your name on my hand, your name is stamped on my heart. And to be able to encourage him to say, Man, in the very place where you feel the most weak, God has already spoken a word to meet you. And I just want you all to know… And this will serve as my final word as well, is that, man, Jesus and the Scriptures are sufficient for so much. The problem is that it might take you a while to mine that, and it's okay because Jesus is not in a hurry. He told us he was coming quickly and has taken two thousand years so far. And so, he is not in a hurry, okay? And he will hold you fast and keep you to the end, but he will also walk with you into the process. So, you can experience what the psalmist says in Psalm 84, that those in whose hearts are the highways to Zion, the people who have gone to the Lord so much that it's like well worn tracks in their soul, they will turn the valley of tears into a place of spring. God wants to form that in you and make that something that's not just nice and cute on a page that can go on a calendar. He really wants to bring you into that experience if you would trust him and go with him. I
Lisa Fields: have nothing to add.
Speaker 6: Yeah, that's good. Yeah.
Speaker 3: We could go into Q and A. That's good. Alright. Alright. So at this time, we are gonna go into our Q and A session. If you have a question, we ask that you come up to the mic right here. Speak loudly into the mic so we can hear you, and we're gonna do thirty minutes of q and a. So we'll open that time now. Hi.
Speaker 7: So you were speaking a little bit earlier about finding peace in community and saying that like isolation isn't always like the best idea. When is isolation a good idea? Besides like going away into prayer on your own, like when is isolation okay?
Lisa Fields: So do you mean as far as getting away from the right… The wrong influences?
Speaker 7: Just like in general, like, I feel like I tend to find myself being isolated a lot just because the outside world is like scary, but I'll never heal if I don't go find community. Yes. So when is that isolation okay? Or should I just not isolate and be out there and go find community?
Lisa Fields: What is the best route? Yeah. You know, it's… So I'm an introvert, and so that means that I recharge best by myself. Right? But as I've grown and developed, I find that sometimes God wants to recharge me with people. Right? So I'm not a slave to my personality. And sometimes, the the fear that wells up in us from community is a part of the the the fact that we've been hurt before in community, and so the outside world seems so scary. And the way you get over fear is not to avoid fear, it's to do what scares you. That's what courage is, to do what scares you. I am… When I first started flying, I was terrified of flying to the point where I was like, God, you can't want me to do Travel the world. This job and travel the world because I gotta listen to Marvin Sapp, Perfect Peace, every takeoff. Right? To to get going. But as I kept flying, the anxiety and the fear decreased to the point now I could sleep on the plane and be okay. And even with the planes falling out the sky, because I've done it so much, God has given me what I need to push through. Absolutely. In the same way, when you wanna overcome your fear of people and community because of past pain, you just have to continue to do it and press in. And and the more you continue to do it, the more you'll find yourself… You'll you'll be like, oh, I'm a social butterfly. Because you just… With any fear, you just have to do it to overcome it.
Speaker 7: Okay. Also, do you think, like, too much community is bad? So, like, me being in, like, five different Christian groups, like, is too much community too bad from too many different types of community? Yeah. You don't wanna… You wanna use wisdom with your time. Right?
Lisa Fields: So you don't wanna overextend yourself. So I think one of the keys is to ask god for wisdom and the right kind of people to to be around and give you discernment. You you don't wanna overextend yourself because that means you're not going to to do well in your relationships when you're stretched too thin. You're not gonna have the the patience with people. It takes a lot to be in deep relationship with people. And so you can't do that with everybody Right. But god will give you a few people that you could do that with to do that well.
Speaker 4: Thank you so much. You're welcome. Yeah. That's good. That's good. Shout out to you for being the brave first soul. Hey, y'all. So I have a question about doing apologetics. I like to go out and do apologetics from time to time, get out there with the Jehovah Witnesses, the Mormons. But there's one group that I consistently have run into a struggle with, and I don't know if it's internal… Black Hebrew Israelites. Amen. Y'all already know. And, you know, I I think I I I get why it is such an enticing theological perspective, especially among the black community because of the way that it is speaking towards people's identity. But my question is, do you think it's wise to engage with them when they're out proselytizing, or are there different ways that you think we could go about trying to engage people in that community to bring them the gospel?
Speaker 5: Yeah, I would definitely say it is unwise to engage with them out on the street. Many years ago… So the the black Hebrew Israelites have been around for well over a hundred years, so they… They're not a new group. They've experienced some revival, so to speak, as a result of social media, the the rise of the Internet, so forth and so on. All of these kinds of… We call them black religious identity cults. They they all tend to have their ebbs and flows in in terms of popularity. You see it with the nation of Islam. You see it with the 5% nation of gods and earths, the New Wapians, the Hebrew Israelites, so forth and so on. What I like to encourage in terms of the personal practice of apologetics is more… Doing it more relationally. Right? So when I'm talking to somebody that I know, I already have relationship capital with that person, which means that I'm credible. I don't have to build that with them. I'm already credible. That also means that most likely they're not going to have their defenses up when I'm… When when they're engaging me. Right? But a person that you don't know, that you are going back and forth out on the street, one of the reasons that it's not fruitful is because, first, they're in their element. Two, you don't have any relationship capital with them. You haven't really earned the right in their mind to be heard. Right? So I think the best ways to actually engage with with persons who are struggling with other religious persuasions or the influence of cults is to engage with them on a relational level. And, don't start with the theological questions. Start with the question more of a open ended, you know, what led you in that direction? Because at that point… So this is one of the things that I've learned over the years is is that where cults tend to succeed is that they tend to they they tend to take more advantage of the felt needs that people have, like needs for affirmation, needs for identity, needs for community, the need to belong, the need to be praised, and and they zero in on that, sometimes even more effectively than we do. And so most likely, that person is not over there with the black Hebrew Israelites because they were convinced by their preaching. They're probably over there because maybe they saw what appears to be a more healthier representation of the black male as opposed to the church that they were in. And so for them, well, that won't be the truth because look at this. Right? And so when you start with more of the open ended, you know, what led you in that direction? You know, talk to me. Walk me through why you're over there. You'll probably hear them talk about some pain points that maybe they didn't get addressed when they were, you know, at their church. Right? And not to put the church down, but people often leave because sometimes they don't find what they're looking for. And maybe it's… It should be in their local church. It's in the church as a whole universally. But sometimes local churches, there may be a deficiency in terms of the ways in which they go about addressing things that everybody needs. And so what happens is is that people start finding other places to find those answers. And so that's what I would encourage is more relationship building on a personal level because that person will tend to listen to you better and without defenses because they know you and because of how they already feel about you.
Speaker 4: Yeah. Only thing I would add to that is, I think the question… So there's a question to me behind or beneath or whatever with that question, which is what makes for effective communication? And I personally… This is me. I'm not gonna… I can't buy your conscience with this because maybe the Lord has actually called you to that. But I find that the things that are necessary to have effective communication are very rarely present with the Black Hebrew Israelites when they're, like, in the middle of their thing. And by that, I mean, for example, I don't mind being yelled at and all that kind of stuff, but if you're to cut me off anytime I start to make a point, I can't talk to you. Right? Like… Because it's like, I ain't the best with this book, but I'm okay with it. And, if you're just not even going to let me, like, answer the question or… You keep your passage out. You know what I'm saying? Or, like, you… I'm almost always, when I've engaged with the Black Hebrews, I'm moving them off the script as fast as I can because they got a script of verses that they know real well and they got their own interpretations too that don't deal with sin and all that kind of stuff, or really Jesus. So, I'm trying to move them off of that, but it's like, as soon as I do that, if you're gonna cut me off, it's like, Well, I can't even really talk. So, to Damon's point as well, my most effective engagement with people who come from that background have been… Even… I don't want to be seeking it out, it was just like, oh, I found out the person was like that because I was already sharing in a one on one context and found out, oh, this person is under the influence of the black Hebrew as a white community. And then we were actually able to engage the arguments because, like you said, they're willing to listen and at least let me finish my point. And they might have a ton of counterpoints, which is fine, and might not be moved by anything I say, but at least we can have a conversation. And I've just found it to be incredibly difficult to have any kind of conversation with them.
Lisa Fields: I would I would just add that not all Hebrew Israelites are created equal. Mhmm. And sometimes when people start researching them, they think, okay. They believe this. And then you run up run up to somebody, and they be like, oh, I identify as Hebrew, but I'm a Christian. Mhmm. And so you wanna ask them more probing questions and not assume that they're the people on the street dressed in Bible days clothes. You know? Like What do think? They look like cue dogs. You know what saying? Like, you wanna you don't wanna assume those things about every… Because all of them… And it builds a a wall in the conversation That's right. If you assume those things. So when they say they identify as Hebrew, start asking them probing questions to kinda to figure out There we go. Which group that they are a part of so it'll help in the engagement.
Speaker 3: Yeah. That's good. That's good. That's Good question. Good question.
Speaker 6: Good evening. Thank you guys for coming and speaking. So my question is kind of layered, but it kind of has to be like putting a limit on the Holy Spirit in prayer. So the title of this is Does Christianity Work? So my question is Does prayer work to a certain extent? Am a Christian, just putting that out there. But for me, when I look at… I think as black people, we feel things very deeply. So when I look at everything that's happening in the world, I can get very overwhelmed as a Christian. The other day, I saw a video that was posted by the White House of ASMR of immigrant being chained up and sit on a plane. I saw the news, which isn't being talked about, but 70 Christians have been beheaded in The Congo. We see what Gaza is looking like. We see what's happening in Ukraine. We see what's happening in Haiti. And it's like, I'm just a grad student. I'm trying to get my PhD. I'm married. I got a baby on the way. I pray for my family. I pray for my local community. I pray for my friends. And I hear a lot of people say, Pray for our leaders. Pray for these other big macro things. And I'm just like, I get overwhelmed and I don't. I just don't think I can do that. I don't… I understand that bad things happen. This is a fallen world. So is it even worth praying for these things? I'd rather just focus on my community here, my wife, my child. I think I have the capacity to pray these large macro prayers for, like, the nation. You know what I'm saying? So I hope that… I just… Some encouragement, I guess. Right.
Speaker 5: If if I could address just quickly… And congratulations, by the way. I I know your journey. I am in chapter four of my dissertation research. It's been about eight years for me, and… Because life be lifein', and I also have a family as well, but I get that. And, I definitely also empathize with the feeling of, you know, being overwhelmed, especially by… You know, the sister was asking the question a little earlier about isolation, you know, kind of when is it right to do that. Often… Well, think the word that she might have been thinking about is solitude. Right? That's different from isolation. Solitude is getting away so that you can commune with God and and and be refreshed. Right? But there… There's always a coming back together, but we would see Jesus do that. And sometimes we do have to tune down the noise pollution by, you know, solitude. Right? And solitude doesn't necessarily even mean praying. It just sometimes means, you know, being quiet. Right? And and… Or turning off the news or other things. But I I would say this about prayer. Two things I learned that transformed my prayer life. And, you know, a lot of people think preachers don't pray. Well, you know, I don't know about those other preachers, but I can't live without prayer. But I'm gonna tell you why. Two things that transformed my life in terms of prayer. One, I got rid of the ritualistic ideas of prayer times and prayer places. I just simply read what Jesus said in John four to the Samaritan woman. He says, the time is coming, and it's now, when prayer will neither be in this mountain or even at the temple, but God is the spirit, and those who worship him will worship him in spirit and in truth. And so, is not about postures, it's not about places, It's not about times. In fact, in the New Testament, it says, people ought to always pray and never cease. And so, for me, what was transformative was to see prayer more like an organic conversation that begins and stops, begins and stops. And, it doesn't have time quotas. Right? So, for instance, when I'm talking to my wife throughout the day, I might call her. We may talk for about five minutes. The conversation ends. Then I get home. We pick the conversation back up. I'm not saying, did I talk to my wife for an hour? Alright. It's an hour. I meant that conversation quota and, right, it's more relational. It's organic. And it's moving. It's a comma as opposed to a period. It's an organic conversation. We don't have to be sitting. We don't necessarily have to be standing. Prayer is always going to happen somewhere, but it's not defined by those things. It's defined by natural, normal, intentional, and conscious conversations that we become aware of that we need to really have with God. The other thing is is that prayer is not prayed from the position or the perch of power, but from powerlessness. The very fact that we are praying is in that mission that we need god. It's in that mission that we don't have all the answers. Kinda like what Kanye said, the sway. You don't have the answers, sway. Right? And it's okay. That's what… When I'm praying, I I I don't have the answers. Right? But I'm going to the one that has all the power. He's got all the answers, and I'm just unloading my burden, and it and it frees me from feeling like I have to be sufficient in every situation. And so just start just start on the move. Not at not at… You know, sometimes you hear people, oh, it's 4AM, and, you know, I just rolled out the bed. God woke me up at 03:30. Some people have these ideas that it's more spiritual to do it at that time. Listen. The most spiritual thing to do in terms of prayer is just recognizing that you need to have conversations with God and just start with whatever is on your heart, whatever is bugging you the most. The Bible says cast your cares on the Lord because he cares for you. In fact, in the Greek text, it literally reads like this, roll your burdens. So God's not asking us to lift them up because they're already too heavy. But if something's on us and we can't pick it up, we can just kinda roll it up off of us. That's what prayer is essentially doing. It's taking the burdens that we have and then rolling them on to the Lord. So just start with whatever is burdening you, whatever is on your heart, whatever is on your mind, and just imagine that you're having conversation with God as though he were a person standing before you. And do it on the move. Do it while you're in the car. Do it in the shower. Do it anyway. So then that way, you you break free of the the ritualistic kind of structure that you think, oh, you know, father, you know you know, you you gotta pull the chair out. You gotta go through the whole, you know, metered kind of thing. That… That's that's cool for, you know, church. Right? But I'm saying, in terms of the normal commune, just take the structure out of it and just think of it more naturally and organically in terms of, I really have a need for God, and just talk to him in that way, and you'll see a very… A liberating a liberating… Prayer will become more liberating. It will become not just a duty, but a delight. It will become something that you'll enjoy doing, and you won't feel like it if you're trying to meet some sort of spiritual quota, if that makes sense.
Speaker 4: Let me… I gotta be brief here because I know we gotta wrap up soon. But, two things. One, this might be a wild thing to suggest, but you should go look at prayer in the book of Revelation, And I say that because there's several scenes in Revelation where the saints are at the throne crying out, How long, O Lord? And that's kind of the question you're asking, is how long are we going to see this like this? And God's reassurance in him is like, When it's time. Okay? And what we'll see oftentimes is that there's a bowl full of incense and God's waiting until this time and he dumps the bowl out and then stuff happens. And so, sometimes our prayers are like that. They're being stored up until the time for God to accomplish those prayers is to be done. The other thing is there's a book called Calling on the Name of the Lord that I wouldn't suggest to anybody because it's kind of a dense read, but it is good. It's just tracing the story of prayer throughout scripture. And the author points out that the very first time that phrase calling on the name of the Lord is mentioned, it seems like what has happened is is God made a promise that the seed of the woman was going to come and crush the head of the serpent and he ain't there yet, and that's when they started praying. And so the very context of prayer is we have to pray because God hasn't done all the things we're waiting on him to do yet. And so, if we… It's like Paul says in Romans eight, Who hopes for what he sees? And prayer is what we do while we hope. And so, it doesn't mean that the prayer is not working, it's actually why we must keep praying. We pray until God does the thing that he's promised to do because that's what he's given us prayer for. And sometimes, that also means lamenting. Prayer is not just about asking. You go read through the Psalm, the psalmist is bending at God because he has not done the things that he needs him to do. And sometimes we need we need to pray our pain until we can trust. And so it works. It don't work the way I want it to neither, but it does. Yeah. That's good. And I'll go ahead. Say one more thing. Praying in community has been super helpful for me. Yeah. Yeah.
Lisa Fields: Few years ago, I got really intentional about praying with friends. I have friends that have been going through depression. They were going to therapy. It wasn't helping. And so I said, we're gonna pray together once a week intentionally. And the friend that I saw battling with depression since college, She could not get free, and we prayed intentionally for a period of time. And she just reported to me, and I've seen her have so much joy and peace. Therapy wasn't working. She was doing all these things, and she said, I've experienced so much joy, and I were… And I trace it back to when we started praying together. Yeah. And so don't discount the power of praying
Speaker 3: with your friends Yeah. And joining in community and joining your faith with others and confessing your faults one to another and praying for one another and watching the healing come. Yeah. That's really good. We do need to move. We do need to move. I'm a say this as encouragement to you, brother, and everyone here. You said the word just, and that that you gotta understand who you are, man. You are a man of God, a husband, a father. More than any of that, you have the spirit of God living inside of you. The same spirit that's spoken to nothing and everything came. The same spirit that defeated death, Jesus came back Yeah. With the spirit of God, and that's the same spirit that dwells in you. So, don't say just. Don't say, I'm just a college student, I'm just anything. You are a child of God. You are the child of the king. And that goes for everyone here who believes, the spirit of God dwells in us. Examine the biblical language, examine what Jesus says we have the right to do because we are in Him. You can speak to this mountain and it will top it over on its head. Alright? Where two or three are gathered, there I am with you. So, be encouraged, man. Don't think of yourself like that. Alright? And I do wanna thank you to our panelists. Unfortunately, that is all the time we have for questions because we do have the rest of the program to get to. I would just ask that you all give it up for our panelists. And look, look, look, everybody that got a question, just know these men and women of god are not going anywhere. Alright? Do you wanna speak after?
Speaker 4: Come on.
Speaker 8: How y'all beautiful people doing today? Good. That's good. Nice to meet y'all. It's It's funny how the spirit moves. Seemed like I walked in at the right time. I want a conversation that you wrote Israelites, right, and whatnot. So my name is Shar Raka, right? Shar for short. Friendly neighborhood Israelite. I just wanted to touch on some of the things that this beautiful sister here had to say. You know, the media has done a beautiful job of painting a picture of, you know, Israelites being this rampaging so called hate group, right? But I'm here to tell you that, you know, what we teach is… Couldn't be the more opposite, right? Right? The basis of our doctrine is to preach and teach love amongst our people. Right? Although, you do have a good point, though. There's a lot of brothers out here that are more on the radical side that definitely do not possess the fruit of the spirit, right, as the Messiah has commanded us to. Right? But my question to y'all all is, I've heard a lot of pastors teach, you know, we would be considered so called Gentiles. Right? So, my question to the panel is, how do you prove that someone of myself or the rest of the people are here are Gentiles? And how do you prove that the people that are in the land of Israel today that claim to be God's chosen are just that?
Speaker 5: Galatians chapter three, God… Paul speaks about God visiting a man by the name of Abraham, and Paul says that his visitation of Abraham was four hundred and thirty years before the law. That is four hundred and thirty years before he called Moses and the and the the nation of Israel out of Egypt. And, this is what Paul says. He says in chapter three verse verse five, he says, so then does God give you the spirit and work miracles among you by your doing the works of the law, or is it by believing what you've heard? Just like Abraham who believed God and it was credited to him for righteousness, you know then that those who have faith, these are Abraham's sons. Now, the scripture saw in advance that God would justify the Gentiles by faith and proclaim the gospel ahead of time to Abraham, saying that all nations will be blessed through you. Consequently, those who have faith are blessed with Abraham who had faith. Now, I go on and on and on, but the fact is that Abraham wasn't a Jew. Abraham was a Gentile. Abraham is the person out of which, the progenitor out of which, the nation of Israel ultimately came. And so according to scripture, the idea of God is to bring salvation to all nations. That's what the word Gentile means, goyim. And and so he used the Jewish nation when he called them out. That became the the nation by which the Messiah came. But the purpose of the Messiah's coming was not just to save Hebrews or Jews. It was to save all nations. And according to scripture, that salvation is accomplished through faith, making us children of Abraham, not by ethnicity. That's what John said in John chapter one verse eight. He says that we are born not by the will of man nor by the flesh, but by the will of God. And so salvation is not in ethnicity. It's not in any work that you do. Salvation is the result of having faith in Christ. And this is why John says that to everyone who believes in him, to them he gave power to become the sons of God, as many as have believed in his name. So salvation is not about being an ethnic Israelite. Salvation is about being a child of God, and that is something that is accomplished through faith in which God adopts us into his family. And so, if you're an Israelite, that's fine, but that won't save you. Only faith in Christ will. Okay. Thank you for that. Thank you very much. Absolutely.
Speaker 3: Y'all put a hand clap together for our panelists. Thank you. You.
Speaker 4: Thank you. Thank