Does Christianity Make Sense? | Q&A at North Carolina Central

Jeremiah: My name is Jeremiah. Again, I'm the president of UCCM. I'll be moderating the discussion tonight.

Yana Conner: My name is Yana Janae Conner. I've been in ministry for about twenty years now. Some of that in college ministry and then in very… In various churches. But I am a writer and bible teacher.

Lisa Fields: Lisa Fields, founder and CEO of G3 Project.

Damon Richardson: Doctor Damon Richardson, I am a adjunct professor of church history and apologetics at Foster College and the founder of Urban Logia Apologetic Ministries.

Jeremiah: Alright. So, we are going to start off with some questions and our first question is for doctor Richardson. The bible was used by some slaveholders to justify slavery. Even as enslaved Africans drew from that same bible for hope and liberation? Did they use the bible to enslave us?

Damon Richardson: Yeah. They actually did. So, you know, I grew up in the nation of Islam, born and raised, and and so I grew up hearing the statement that Christianity is the white man's religion. So I I definitely get how that idea lands when African Americans hear about slavery and the bible and how it was used to justify slavery. But we we have to also look at history to kinda really understand how they attempted to weaponize the bible. Here's what they had to do in order to try to pull that off. So the first thing I would say is is that they… So around seventeen o eight, there was a missionary society in London that created what they called the selected portions of the holy bible for the use of the the Negro in the British West Indies. And so this is what we would refer to as the slave bible. So, essentially, it contained about 232 of the 1,192 chapters of scripture, which means they took out 90% of the old testament and 50% of the new. So when you're trying to… So if the bible is essentially supporting slavery, then you don't use the bible and then cut it all up in order to be able to do that. So that really shows you that they were afraid of scripture because the majority of scripture actually speaks of liberation and freedom. For instance, in Exodus chapter 21 verse 19, it literally makes stealing people a capital crime. First same same thing in the New Testament. First Timothy, I think it is four and ten, Paul talks about stealing men or men's steelers and he calls that an act that is condemned in scripture. So really nothing in scripture supported what they did. That's why they attempted to cut scripture up in order to leave portions like, for instance, Ephesians six and five, servants obey your masters and things like that. But they wanted to take out, for instance, Galatians three twenty eight that says that slaves and free persons were all one in Christ. So they took all that out because, again, nothing that Jesus taught and nothing throughout all of scripture supports the idea of of slavery. And so here's a bit of irony is that there is a… One of the last surviving copies of the slave bible literally sits on the campus of an HBCU, Fisk University. Right? And so here it is, one of the very symbols of an attempt to keep us in bondage. Here, African Americans, the descendants of African Americans literally have that symbol as we learn and walk around in liberation and in freedom. And so I'll just say this lastly, one of the things that we've got to also think about is what they couldn't erase, and that is is an entire history that condemns the very notion of slavery. So, for instance, when you look at Christianity and where it began on the Continent Of Asia and how it quickly spread to Africa and when you look at African Christianity long before slave ships ever went to West Africa. Christianity was very prominent in North Africa, in areas such as Ethiopia, The Sudan. We've got literally the first Christian nation in the world in the fourth century was the Abyssinian or the Nubian empire. And so when you really look at the scriptures and you look at the history of Christianity, it just doesn't support the notion that Christianity is a slaveholders religion. In fact, we know from looking at the narratives of enslaved Africans who were Christians and also the narratives of enslavers that they hated for enslaved Africans to become Christians. In fact, they described African Christians who were enslaved as the worst slaves because they are reading the bible and learning about their liberty in Christ literally made them seek liberation and freedom. And so it was literally harder to control them. The ones that were more docile were the people who actually rejected Christianity. So the fact is Christianity was not beaten into enslaved Africans. They attempted to keep it from them and from their own testimonies. They beat them. They sold them off. They even killed them in order to keep them from reading the bible. So when we look at scripture and we look at history, we we understand exactly why they attempted to weaponize a portion of scripture because they knew that if we read all of it, we would know the truth and as Jesus said, the truth will set you free.

Jeremiah: Amen. Alright. Did anybody else wanna chime in? Yeah. I think to to

Lisa Fields: to Damon's point, I always tell students, if slave masters didn't want you to read the bible from cover to cover, a protest against white supremacy is to read the bible from cover to cover. Right? So the tendency for people to say, well people use portions of the bible as an oppressive tool. But as doctor Richardson already demonstrated, they only wanted you to read certain parts. They didn't want you to read the whole. So if you don't read the bible altogether, you're actually doing what slave masters wanted to begin with. So to protest it is to read it from cover to cover. And so somewhere in our thought process we've seen people use portions, but anything can be used to harm. I think about my favorite show used to be Criminal Minds. Anybody watch Criminal Minds? Okay. A few people. Some people did destructive things with a hammer on Criminal Minds. But a hammer's purpose is not meant to harm. I could kill somebody with a hammer, but the purpose of the hammer was not the intent to harm, it was the intent to help you build. And so anybody can take anything to be destructive. And that's important to note, we cannot judge a belief or anything by its abuses. But the proof that something is authentic is that there will be a counterfeit that exists. Counterfeit money exists but we don't because counterfeit money exists say we have to throw away money. We're just like no, we gotta get rid of the or discern between the counterfeit and the authentic, the money is still useful. And the same way with our faith, there will be counterfeits. The enemy disguises himself the bible says as an angel of light. So he's trying to create counterfeits but it's not to say the proof of a counterfeit, the reality of a counterfeit is proof that authentic exists because the counterfeit is based on something that's real. Mhmm. The enemy is always gonna try to create what God has already created to deceive people. And so it's important for us not to throw away the truth that is called to liberate us because the enemy uses deception to distort the truth that God has given us.

Yana Conner: Yana, did you wanna… Oh no. They they did a great job. Alright.

Jeremiah: Well, Yana, the next question is actually for you. The historic Christian sexual ethic is increasingly viewed as harmful or discriminatory toward LGBTQ plus people. So the question is, is God homophobic?

Yana Conner: Thank you. Yeah. No. I've wrestled with this question. So they sent us the questions before, and I wrestled with this question because, one, I don't feel like I can answer this question in a substantive or satisfactory way within just a few a few moments, and and not even to meet my own standards in in answering it during during this time. I also wrestled with this question, because I personally prefer to have conversations around sexuality in the context of of relationships where we can achieve some sort of level of thoughtfulness, care, and nuance. So, I'm just gonna say that I'm probably not gonna answer this question well in this moment, but I'm going to do my absolute best. But the main reason why I struggle with answering this question is because we all entered this room with different presuppositions. So, different world views, different foundational beliefs, that are rooted in our experiences, whether it's in the church or outside of the church. We also, maybe in this room, have varying views on the Bible and, its faithfulness, its, trustworthiness. And so, I understand that I'm entering into this conversation, in a way that is kind of, could be naturally offensive and that we all are sort of in different places. But I think a good place to start is for us to define what homophobia is. And so, homophobia is the fear, hatred, discomfort with, or prejudice against people who are lesbian, gay or bisexual. And so, let's talk about fear first. Well, I would say that if we're talking about homophobia through the lens of fear, then, no, God does not fear those who are part of the LGBT QIA plus community. Why? Because he is a sovereign creator and ruler of all things and there is nothing that he lives or exists in fear of. And then if we were to ask the question, does God hate those who are part of the LGBT community? The answer is immediately no. Why? Because God is the creator of all things and he deeply loves everything that he created, so much so that he sends Jesus Christ into the world to die on the cross to redeem everything that he created from, the brokenness of sin. But then when we move on to the question of does, discomfort with or prejudice, I think we do have to do some work there. But before we do that work, I want to share with you one of my presuppositions, one of the doors through which I enter this conversation and it's this, it's that same sex attraction is not a matter of personhood or identity, it is an… A lifestyle. And I think that's a very helpful or a very important distinction for me to share with you because we live in a culture and a context where sexuality is an identity marker, where sexuality is the lens through which we, understand our our personhood. But as I wrestled with the scriptures, and even read books and and and looked at history, it wasn't until, maybe the last, like, few years, or not few years, but fifty plus years where, sexuality was a matter of identity. And so instead of someone saying, I'm a man who's in a relationship with a man, they say, I am queer. Or instead of, them sort of, seeing their sexuality as something they do, they see it as something that they are. And I'm entering the door and saying, No, our sexuality is not something that we are, primarily. It's not the primary lens to which we should understand ourselves. It is something that we do. It is a lifestyle that we can choose. And so, when we answer the conversation from that door, I think it helps us to understand and interact with a little bit more understanding of what's happening in the scriptures. -Right. -And so, in scripture, we can't deny it. It's there. The language is there where it says that homosexuality is an abomination to God. Now, once again, we have to understand what that word abomination means. It is it is a action that is offensive to God. Once again, it's an offensive to God. It's not a person who is offensive to God. And so… But I understand that for those who are same sex attracted, for those who would identify as they are part of the LGBTQ community is that when we have this conversation around sex… Sexuality and we say that homosexual… Homosexuality is an abomination or that it is a sin, we are saying they hear it as they are an abomination. They are our sin. And that is what makes this a really harmful and hurtful conversation. But for me, when we talk about… And when I look at the scriptures, when we talk about homosexuality as it being a sin, which we have to define that word too, right? And so a sin is anything that is a deviation from God's created order and what God deems as good. And so I, once again, one of the doors with… Through which I enter this conversation is I believe that God created the world and everything in it, and that he didn't just create the structure of the world or the structure of our bodies, but he created our bodies with a particular direction, a particular purpose. And so, if that… And and we see that with the sun, moon, and the stars. He says that the sun… He doesn't just create the sun and walk away. He says, No, the sun is to govern over the day. So he gives purpose to the sun. He says, The moon is to govern over the night. He gives purpose to the moon. And then he talks about the seasons and how all of these… All of this creation is supposed to give us summer, winter, spring, fall, right? And so when God creates us, he creates not just our bodies, but he also creates our bodies to function and to flourish and to thrive in a particular way. And so when we say sin, that's anything that's a deviation from God's created order. But I also wanna just say here that, homosexuality is not the only thing in Scripture that is referred to as an abomination or even a sin. Injustice, lying, neglect for the poor and the widow, indifference, you know, all of those things are also considered abomination. And I think where we, in our conversation about this, is that we've kind of singled this out as this is the only thing that is offensive. And if it's not the only thing, it's the first thing that's offensive. But before God's eyes, sin is sin, you know? And it all is offensive, it all grieves him. So, when we talk about, does God maybe find discomfort with homosexuality? It's not that he finds discomfort with the person, it's that he finds discomfort with them stewarding their sexuality in a way that he never intended, that it grieves him and we see that immediately in scripture. The first emotion that God has towards sin isn't anger, it's grief. Right? And so, it grieves him and why does it grieve him? It's because, like, Yo, I didn't create you to live that way. I created you to live in a different kind of way. And so it grieves him but that grief doesn't cause God to move away from us. That grief causes God to move towards us. So, doesn't reject us. And so, if we're looking at it, homophobia, through the lens of the discomfort that leads to rejection, then we would say, No, God is not homophobic in that way because His grief does not lead Him away from us, it leads Him towards us. And then the last sort of marker there for homophobia is prejudice. Well, God does not prefer heterosexuals over homosexuals. Like, He… They don't have more favor, they aren't more blessed. Like, that's… The scriptures say there is no partiality with and so, we are all loved by Him, and He regards our sin in the same, same way. But if we're asking the question, is there a way for someone who is same sex attracted to be accepted by God? Then the answer is yes. And that way for them to be accepted by God is through Jesus Christ. It's through them putting their faith in the work of Jesus Christ on the cross for their sin. However, it is them that is accepted, it is not their lifestyle that is accepted. So the person is accepted but the lifestyle isn't accepted. And so, when we all come to Jesus, we all come to Jesus with our abominations, with our sin, with the ways in which we deviated from his plan and his will and the work that we do as Christians is that Romans twelve one through two work where it says that we are to present in view of God's mercy, in view of what Jesus has done for us, we are to present our bodies, as living sacrifices, holy and acceptable in his his sight. And we are to not conform to the ways of this world and the ways in which it talks about sexuality, and not just, homosexuality, but also, like, how we steward our sexuality in general. We put… We aren't conformed to the ways of the world where that's concerned. We are allowing ourselves to be transformed by the renewing of our mind. We are making some traits in what we believe and what we think about sexuality as we discern what is the good, perfect and will of God. And I just wanna say that because if there is someone in this room where maybe you are, you would say you struggle or you experience same sex attraction and you're trying to make sense of this, like, okay, like, I want to be in relationship with Jesus. One, there is a way for you to be in relationship with Jesus. It's through Jesus. But then also, your work is then to to to do that transformative work where you're no longer conformed to the ways of this world but you're allowing the spirit and allowing God's word to transform, you.

Jeremiah: Alright, thank you. Lisa, doctor Richardson, did you all wanna chime in on that at all?

Lisa Fields: No. Think that was an incredible thorough answer. I would just add that one of the things that I I see often times when I'm engaging students is how we think about what God deems as righteous and what God deems as sinful and what's the criteria for those things. That's good. So usually when we think of like is this right or wrong, we think of who is it harming?

Yana Conner: That's good. Right?

Lisa Fields: Who is who is my sexual activity whether homosexual or heterosexual? Who is this sex harming if it's two consenting adults? Yeah. Right? Yeah. And so we judge what's right or wrong based on the harm that it may cause other people. Mhmm. Right? You're like, if it don't hurt nobody, why you mad? We two grown people. We we making the decisions about us. Mhmm. And so this is when I think going back to the first deviation from God's creational intent is important. Because it trips me up that we're in a chaotic world because somebody ate fruit.

Yana Conner: Yeah. That's a good point, Lisa.

Lisa Fields: Right? They weren't The first thing wasn't homosexuality, it wasn't adultery, it wasn't murder. You know, it wasn't the big things we think. Yeah. That's good, Lisa. It was that somebody ate fruit. And they can look around and say, God who is this hurting? Yeah. There was nobody but them. Mhmm. So if we if we go back to the first sin and we and we say, and if we're judging all of our decisions based on who is it hurting, we have to ask ourselves who was the fruit hurting? If that's our… We start there, right? Then that helps us when we're thinking about sins that we don't understand why they're sins.

Yana Conner: Mhmm.

Lisa Fields: Because they didn't understand why the fruit whether it was an apple or whatever, a pear, we don't know. Why that was a sin? Yeah. But they wanted the same… That their desire to have the fruit was the desire that they wanted to be God. Mhmm. They wanted control over their life. Mhmm. And they ate the fruit because it would give them power to be like God which was crazy because they were already made in this image. Mhmm. So they did something to get what they already had. So I want you to look at when you think about what is sin, when you look at particularly your sexuality, you say who are we hurting? Think about the fruit. Mhmm. Nobody seemed to be hurt from that but it was a deviation from God's design for them. Mhmm. God's design was not for them to get the knowledge that the fruit gave them. Mhmm. Mhmm. Even though it looked inconsequential. And some of the decisions you're facing sexually look inconsequential. Mhmm. They look inconsequential now. Mhmm. But they may have repercussions later on. Yeah. And so you want to think about that. Also you want to think about if it's God's body, God's world, God gets to choose how we live in our bodies and how we live in his world. Mhmm. Because our bodies are his. Yep. I am… I say this all the time everywhere I go in black settings people judge me, can't play spades.

Damon Richardson: You know?

Lisa Fields: It's okay. Anybody else can't play spades in here? Woah. Woah. Woah. Woah. I feel like I'm amongst… Oh. Okay. Alright. I'm amongst family. No. I'm a I'm a amongst family who can't play spades. So y'all like my family because usually it's the other way around. I love Uno. And… Yeah.

Yana Conner: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's the new spades. It's crazy. And

Lisa Fields: the reason I love UNO is because when when I used to play with my cousins at my grandma house during the summer, we used to make our own rules. Triples, doubles, and trains. It was it was stacking that came out. And recently, UNO released some rules on their social media account. And they said no stacking. And I said, what is happening? How are you gonna teach me? People in the comments were saying Uno don't know how to play Uno. Right? But they got to dictate how the game was played because it's their game. Mhmm. And God gets to dictate how you use your body because it's his body. Yeah. Yeah. And you may have been using your body just like I use UNO the way I wanna use it. Yeah. But the owner of UNO was saying that's not how I designed the game to be played. Now you may be able to get pleasure, you may be to get satisfaction, you may be able to get out in one turn based on the way you play but that's not how the game is meant to be played. Yeah. And, God has a particular way that your body is to be used in a particular covenant and he's like, I get to dictate this because you are mine. Right. And, this world is And,

Yana Conner: I think, yeah, that's so good. That's so good. Yeah. Y'all can clap for that. Yeah. And so, and I… As someone who is 41, single, and has been a virgin their their entire life, I've really wrestled with Jesus' teachings on sexuality. I've really, really wrestled with it. And so, even as we we're having this conversation, I I feel the need to say that I am able to submit and surrender my life, to Jesus in this way because I believe that He is good. -Mm -And so I believe that He is good, I believe that His ways are good, I believe that His commands are good. I don't see them as, boundaries that I need to get out of. I don't see them as a prison. I believe that if the Lord put a command in place that it's actually for my good, it's for my protection. And that is something that he has done in in love for me. But if you think that God's commands are are running… Are raining on your parade or you think that Christianity or the scriptures are are something that are trying to hold… Keep you bound, if that's your starting point with those things then it makes it really difficult to to willfully surrender to the Lord's way. So I just say that to to anyone who's wrestling with the things that are said here, go back even further to the question, is God good? Because if he's good, then then his ways are good. And if he's doing all of this as an act of love, then then how do you surrender and turn your life over to that love? Because it's not about restriction, it's really about your flourishing, I you don't I don't regret, like, not, like, like, not having sex, like, don't regret that. I I'm grateful that I get to surrender my life to to the Lord, in that way. And in that, to say that He is better than my sexuality being fulfilled. In the ways in which maybe I want to or the ways in which, the culture tells me to. Jesus is better.

Jeremiah: Alright. Thank you. Alright. That was that was a really good discussion. Moving on to Lisa. Manifesting has become increasingly popular as people seek to shape their future through intention, words and belief. Is manifesting witchcraft?

Lisa Fields: Who are you? Who wrote these questions? I think that's a great question. I think that we are in a world in a space and time where we want to utilize spiritual practices to get the desired outcomes we want. Right? And so it's always interesting to me with manifestation. Manifestation to me gets very self absorbed because people aren't usually manifesting social justice. People aren't manifesting healings at hospitals. They're manifesting stuff for their life to be better. And if it works so well, then you should be able to cure all the ills in society based on your willpower. I think when we talk about witchcraft, I think we have such a… When we use words, we don't often times think about what we're saying. So witchcraft is like the the spooky term where you're like, I can't touch that, you know, roots or whatever. Different things we we deem as witchcraft. But I think one of us… A simplified way to think of it is trying to access supernatural power without God. Mhmm. That you're going to try to access divine power without seeking the God of the universe. Yeah. It's going out of order. It's trying to create your own destiny by bypassing the God who is sovereign. Right? I think that's a more simpler way we could talk about it because in the old testament he said rebellion is as the spirit of witchcraft. To rebel against the ways of God, to rebel against the order of God is as the sin of witchcraft. It is to seek your own will above what God's will is. This is really the first sin. To seek power by divorcing God. We want to create the world we want by speaking it to existence without asking God is that what He wants for us. And so, I would challenge those who are into manifesting to ask ask yourself what do you want in this world that you feel like God is not allowing you to have? What am I trying to obtain that I feel like I can't go to God for? That I have to create the world of myself by calling those things into existence by my own power and my words. Our words don't have power. God's words have power. Any power that we have is lended to us by the Lord. This is why Daniel when he says and and Joseph also says this when they are interpreting dreams, I can't do it. It seems like I have some special power. The power that I have is lended to me Mhmm. Because of the Lord. Mhmm. God wants to… Back to Yana's point, God wants to do good things for you. He loves you. He has a purpose for you. His purpose may not line up with yours. Right? I… If it was up to me, I would be a stock worker working on Wall Street right now. Not saying none of y'all. I'd be rich on Wall Street donating to causes like June 3. Not fundraising for June 3. I would be giving the funds not asking for funds. That was the purpose for my life But God had a different purpose for my life. And he knew better than I do did because I wanted to move to New York now that I'm a dog. I hate New York. No no. If y'all from New York don't. He's from New York so I you know. It's not my favorite place to be but God knew that it wouldn't even be a place that I would like to live. I had an ideal view of what I wanted my life to look like. And I think we have to just ask ourselves what life are we trying to create for ourselves and why do we feel like we can't seek God for it? Why do we feel like we have to create it for ourselves? And then start that excavation process. Sometimes we feel the need to create it for ourselves because we prayed and we feel disappointed by God. God I prayed for you to do this, I prayed for you to come through and you haven't come through so I gotta create a world myself. I gotta do it myself. Mhmm. You ever ask somebody to do something, they didn't do it so you're like, dang, I gotta do it myself. And we get into maybe manifesting because we're like, I gotta do it myself because you're not gonna do it for me. And if you're in that place you need to start by saying, God I thought you would come through, I thought you were good, I thought you were faithful, but you haven't been faithful. You've allowed some stuff to happen to me, you've allowed some abuse, some heartbreak to happen to me and I… In the times where I was the most faithful and I was praying the most. And I'm disappointed in what you allowed and I don't trust you because you don't seem to be trustworthy. God can handle that pain. You don't have to try to create the life you want. You could trust God with the pain from the life you experience.

Yana Conner: Mhmm.

Lisa Fields: And let him walk you through that to get to a more healed space.

Jeremiah: If anybody else wanted to chime in? Okay. So, I I do have a follow-up question that kinda came to mind. How do we become content with those things that God has said no to?

Lisa Fields: Great question. Yeah. I'll I'll I'll go. Particularly,

Yana Conner: like, already just shared and so, you know, like, I I thought I would be married by now. I thought I would have children, by by now. And that's just not that's not what's true, for me. And so, a couple of things that have helped me to to navigate sort of unanswered prayer, is, one, believing that the Lord is good, you know. So that's always that's always gonna be the starting place, this place I start and the place that I end, that the Lord is good, and that His plans, for me are good. But then I also, like, for a season, I really sat in Psalm 16, where, he talks about, The Lord is my inheritance. You hold my lot. The boundary lines have fallen in pleasant places, for for me. And so that's something I've had to to wrestle with. Like, Yana, do you believe that the boundary lines have fallen in pleasant places for you? Do you believe that the life that the Lord has created for you, is is good. And I think sometimes we're so consumed with what we don't have that we're not able to enjoy what we do have. And so, the boundary lines outside of that is marriage, but what is inside the boundary lines that can be enjoyed and that can be celebrated? And and there's so much, that that can. But with that discontentment, I… Our our… When that desire for marriage comes up, don't ignore it. I just go back to the Lord and I confess it, I I have it out with Him, you know, I let Him know how I feel about it, but then I just try to find my way back to this truth that that the Lord is good. And then I have to to realize that we live in a broken and fallen world, that is filled with gaps. There are gonna be gaps in our experiences, there are gonna be gaps in our relationships, there's gonna be all these gaps that we have to navigate. And so I am constantly aware that I'm not going to have the kind of life that I want to have down here on Earth, you know? And that even if the Lord were to give me marriage, there would be gaps in that. There would be struggles in that. Like, I couldn't expect that that joke is just gonna be everything that I want because he can't do that because he a man. You know what I'm saying? And so… And I can't do that for him because I'm a woman. You know, I'm human. Like, we're human. And so just having to to live in the… Accept the reality that we're always gonna have these gaps. There's always gonna be some measure of discontentment, but I think it can be exasperated when we don't know how to celebrate and enjoy the things that that we have. So that's how I personally have come to navigate it. Yeah.

Damon Richardson: Yeah. I I would say that, I think if we're all honest, we could look at our lives and say we are not the best guide of our own lives. If we just take an honest inventory of the decisions that we've made and the things that we've done, I think we would all arrive at the conclusion that left up to us, we're gonna mess it up. Right? And if that's true, then no has to be reevaluated for what it's worth. Like, for instance… So I'm a parent. I have three sons and one daughter. My oldest son is 26, middle son's 23, the girl's 15, and the youngest boy's 14. So they're kinda spread out. So I got three home runs and one grand slam. That's how I see it. But raising them meant that I had to say no a lot. And oftentimes, children are very quick to do things and sometimes the fastest reaction that you can have… For instance, you've got a hot pizza on the table and the child, meaning well, is reaching for that that hot pizza, which means they're about to be burned. And so slapping that hand doesn't really mean I don't want my child to have pizza. Slapping the hand means I don't want her to get burned. Right? And so my fastest reaction is preventative because although I do want my child to eat, I know that what my child is attempting to do is going to ultimately cause them harm. So no is often an act of love. It is a preventative measure to keep us from doing things that we cannot truly see the danger in. Right? And and so it's it's like having an aerial view from a ground view. Right? So if you're driving your… See, you got a nice little sports car and you're on the California Coast and you're driving around that mountain and let's say there is a semi truck going up that grade at like three miles an hour and you're like, oh, and then there's room to pass. But you don't really know if you can or not because there could be another car coming towards you. Right? It's it's a it's a risk and and so you don't have the right perspective there. But there's a helicopter, let's say a news helicopter just above that can actually see that the next car is not really coming for for the next five miles. There… That perspective is much higher. And I think if we… This is why we've gotta trust God because he has that aerial view. He has that perspective that we don't have and and and so contentment is really living in the space of trusting that God has the best view of of my life. And so when we quote for instance, I can do all things through Christ that strengthens me. That's not about football. That's not about basketball. That's not about winning in life or anything. Paul wrote that statement in the context of saying, whatever my my situation in life is, I've gotta be content with God. And and and that is whether I'm told no or whether I get a yes or or what have you. And so I think when we look at faith in God and contentment and understanding no, I think if we look at it as an act of love and an and an appreciation for the fact that God knows better than we do. I think we've already admitted that we really don't know the best and I really have made a fine mess of my life in many instances. At 54 years old, I'm always thinking back about what I would do differently and if I were given another shot, this, that, and the other. So what do you look like moving forward already knowing that if it's all left up to you that you really know the best about what should happen and what shouldn't happen? And and so that's where the bible says in the multitude of counselors, there is a… Is safety. And so God often uses people with wisdom in your life and he uses his word to guide us and, you know, and we've got bible teachers, we've got panels like this, we've got school. All of these things are ways in which god can help us kinda navigate the yeses and the noes in life. And so, I would say just kinda lean into trusting that god really knows better than we know. Alright.

Jeremiah: Thank you. The next question is actually for you doctor Richardson. So, I think we've seen a flurry in the news recently of a lot of… Especially injustices, specifically with hanging of African Americans in The United States and even how the grand jury decided in the Nolan Wells case in Mississippi. So, Christianity teaches that God is just, yet history repeatedly shows oppression flourishing and wrongdoers prospering. If God is just, why does injustice seem to win so often? Yeah. That's a really,

Damon Richardson: really good question and it's a question that is spoken about a lot in the bible. In fact, God gave us answers to that question because he knew we would wrestle with it. And so for instance, Habakkuk, funny… That's that's one of the funniest names in all of the bible. Name… Habakkuk was a prophet and he once asked God this question. He was like, how long am I going to call on your name and then you not answer me? Right? Then in Psalm 73, there was a psalmist named Asaph that said, you know what? I really own… My feet almost slipped when I started thinking about the prosperity of the wicked. Like, it just seemed mad wrong to me that evil people were doing better than good people. Like, people serving you, like, I'm just, like, really confused. He's like, I just just about backslid as I started thinking about why evil people seem to prosper and the righteous seem to suffer. And then he said this, which really changes. So this is what you would call lament in scripture. He's literally protesting and and laying out a a godly argument. Like, god wants him to come before him in this way. Like, god invites our questions. And and so then he says that I really sought to understand these things and he says, but when I entered into the house of God, then I understood their final destiny. And so what what Asaph is saying is is that my perspective was wrong. I was looking at it from a short game standpoint. But when I look at it from a long long term standpoint that god is really just being patient, that his patience can't be confused with indifference. Just because folks seem like they're getting away doesn't mean that they're really getting away. Acts chapter 17 says that there that there is a time coming that God has reserved for judgment, like he is going to call all things into accountability. The next thing I'll say is is that the very question itself assumes that we do have a standard for what justice actually is. Because if we think that injustice is occurring, then that must mean that we believe that there is a thing called justice, that there is a thing called righteousness. Now, if there is no God, then there is no sense of justice at all. Right? And and so then, take for instance… I'm gonna tell you exactly why we must believe in God and we must believe in his moral order and injustice. Take for instance in 1781, there was a slave ship called Zorg, that… Zong, in fact, z o n g, Zong. It was a British slave ship that sailed off of the coast of Ghana. Had about… Roughly about 470 enslaved Africans. And somewhere out in the middle of the Atlantic, they got off course as a result of a storm, headed for Jamaica, and realized that they just weren't going to make it and a number of people were going to die. So they decided to throw 173 of our ancestors overboard in order to be able to get an insurance payout. Now, if there's no such thing as justice, then there's really no way that we can, really hate what happened there or we can say that that's wrong. The best we'd be able to say is that, well, that's just unfortunate. It would be like the animal kingdom, you know, when when when, you know, a hyena gets killed by a lion. That's just unfortunate, but we couldn't call it injustice. But the fact of the matter is is that we know that justice exists because we know that God is right. And if God is right, he is in fact going to deal with all injustices. And the bible tells us that God has built his throne on righteousness and justice. The last thing I'll mention on that is is that nobody knows about injustice better than God himself Because on that Easter Friday, his own son experienced the greatest act of injustice. They took a man that was dirt guilty, a murderer by the name of Barabbas, set that man free and condemned Jesus. A man that never even sinned, perfectly obeyed his father. And here's how God turned that around and made that the greatest act of justice that could ever exist in humanity is that God knew that our sins were an injustice against him. And so he poured out the wrath that was really intended for you and I on his son so that we can experience the justice of liberation, salvation and eternal life. And then God said, I'm gonna give you the receipt. I'm gonna prove to you that justice is always something that I'm going to work out. Because three days later, when everybody thought it was all over, God raised his son from the dead as the receipts that injustice does not get the final say. And and so, I'm gonna tell you that if you ever thought that injustice is winning, just look at the cross and look at the resurrection. That God is going to make sure that in the end, he makes all the crooked paths straight. And that's why he said in Micah six and eight that we've gotta love justice and mercy and then walk humbly before our God. And so if you love justice, then you gotta love God because God is right and God is going to fix it. And and and and and I'm telling you, we can be part of what that looks like on the way to his son coming back. We can be part of what justice looks like. He hasn't just called us into believing right, he's called us into having the right heart posture. We call that orthopathy. But he's also called us into the right actions towards other people. We call that call that orthopraxy or orthopraxis. So all of that is what it looks like to to live out and walk out gospel justice in the here and now. Right? So so we can we can all be part of that.

Speaker 6: Not wrestling with, but just curious what your thoughts are about, one, why are things like the nation of Islam and Islam itself or like black Hebrew Israelites more attractive or seems more attractive to, like, black people? Right. Just your thoughts on that.

Damon Richardson: Yeah. That's a great question. I I I had mentioned earlier that I was born and raised in the nation of Islam back in the seventies, during the time when Elijah Muhammad was actually still the leader. And so my father brought our family into the nation of Islam and like so many other African American men, he, was introduced to the nation of Islam because he has spent some time in prison. And and I think one of the reasons why groups like the nation of Islam, the 5% nation of gods and earth, black Hebrew Israelites, Nwapians, and all these types of groups are so attractive to African Americans is because they're attempting in in an unredeemed and uninformed way to answer real questions about dignity, about purpose, about value, and about real harm that African Americans have experienced in this country, identity even. Right? So they're attempting to answer these questions. The the problem is is that because their starting point is not god's word, they rightly recognize that there is a problem. But because they are not starting in the with god's word and in the right places in history, they attempt to answer these questions. So for instance, rather than recognizing that my true value and worth and dignity is rooted in creation, The bible says in Genesis one twenty six, let us make man in our image and in our likeness. That means all human beings are inherently, image bearers. That means that we are all representatives of God. That is the greatest apologetic against racial hierarchy and racism and white supremacy because what that attempts to say is that some humans have been made greater and others have been made inferior. And yet, god's word says that we all have been equally made in the image and likeness of god. And so that supports my dignity. I don't even have to wait to get to the cross to know that I've got dignity because that is inherently offered to me at creation. Now the cross reaffirms that dignity. Right? But what the nation of Islam says, well, the way to find your dignity and your identity is to recognize that you're really the, part of the god tribe of Shabbat lost into the wilderness of North America. The black Hebrew Israelites attempt to steal somebody else's identity and then say, well, this is who we really are. Right? And then the… You you got these other groups. Everybody's trying to say, well, we're really Moores and we're really this and we're really that. And they're really trying to cover… Recover identity in ways that are misguided by history and misappropriated because they really aren't starting with what God's word actually has to say about us. And so it's attractive because it appears that they are giving some… Their concern is resonating with a deep longing to have identity, to have purpose and value, and all of that is good. But what good does it to know that a person is longing for identity, purpose, value, significance, and all these different things, and then make up make up a narrative, a false narrative just to make this person feel better. Right? It… We need to know the truth about who we are and what God has said about us. And I would rather know the truth than to be handed a fable just to make me, myself, and make other black people feel better. And so when we really examine, the claims of the nation of Islam, black people Israelites, and all these things against what the bible says and what we know for a fact in history, it doesn't shake out to be the truth. Right? So we've gotta reject that. We've… All all claim… All truth claims need to be evaluated on the basis of whether they actually cohere with reality. And we know for a fact that those claims don't. So the truth can be found in what God's word has actually said and what we can actually see delineated through the courses of… Through the course of history. And that might be a tough conversation, but at the end of the day, do we wanna know the truth or do we wanna be lied to? Right? And so I get why many people think that those groups have the right answer. And then I'll just say this lastly, as an indictment against some local churches, sometimes people are going to church looking for answers and they're not getting answers. And so then they go somewhere else because that other place is attempting to answer that question whether it's they're getting the right answer or not. They're at least excited that somebody's attempting to answer that question. And so, in my belief, I think that it is a reasonable expectation for people to be able to go to church and get answers, biblical answers about worldview questions and concerns about god and evil or whatever it is, it's a reasonable expectation to be able to go there and get answers. But if we're already always turning people away and saying, I'll get back to you later and this, that, or the other, people's questions are not going to go away. They're just gonna find somebody else that's going to answer them. And I would say that some of the some of the blame is ours. We've dropped the ball in many instances, and we've allowed these groups to spring up inside the vacuum of our communities because they are attempting to give answer to questions that we've… So many of us have long avoided because we were too busy shouting and preaching and doing all kinds of stuff rather than really giving real voice to real issues that people are concerned about. That's good.

Speaker 7: So, I've actually had this question for a minute, but the Lord just blessed me with language to actually ask the question for his good and faithful service on the panel. And so, my question is, can God change his mind? Change his mind concerning something he has spoken to us if we genuinely believe we've received a promise from God, but later have to surrender that very promise? How should we understand that biblically?

Yana Conner: I think I wanna I think I wanna start with the, Me and my roommate, we were reading Hebrews and it talks about how one, God cannot lie and that if He makes a promise, He will fulfill it. And so, so, if we're talking about, Can God change His mind in that sense when it comes to something that He has promised? The answer is… Would be no. It… Like, just from what I see in Scripture because God cannot lie and every promise that He makes, He fulfills. But I do think that, if we feel… If the promise isn't in Scripture, right, and it's like, it's, it's… We were maybe at a time of prayer and we felt like God said that He was gonna do something and it doesn't, like, play out in our lives, then I think we have to ask the question, Well, did I hear God correctly? Did I actually hear God, in that? And that's something I've had to wrestle with. I was like, Man, maybe I heard God wrong or maybe that He didn't actually make me that promise. And so, I think when it comes to that, I have to always, like, anchor myself in Scripture. Like, all of God's promises are yes and amen in Jesus, but they are the promises that we find in in this in this book, in this text. All the the the other things that maybe we sort of our impressions, like we thought God was gonna give us this career path or we would be in relationship with this person, those kinds of things, I think that's where we sort of need discernment. And I'll say this, like, I believe that hearing from God is something that we have to practice and learn, you know? And then I think we have to also be okay that sometimes we might hear incorrectly, we might discern incorrectly. And even in those moments, are times in which we learn from it. It's like, Oh, well, what was going on in that? So, anytime I feel like I'm hearing something from the Lord, I immediately go to my community and I say, Hey, I feel like I'm hearing this from the Lord. Would you pray with me, you know, about this? And so then we're all praying about it and we're all looking to see if there are ways in which the Lord will confirm, you know, that what I heard true and that He will actually… That that is the direction that I need, to move in. But if my whole community says, Hey, girl, I don't know about that, you know, then the question is, am I gonna listen to my community? I've been guilty of sometimes not listening, right? But but I'm learning even through that to listen, to to to my community in that. And so so my short answer is no, cannot change his mind about a promise that he's made. But if it's something that's not rooted in scripture then it could be that we've heard wrong and we need to use discernment there. Recently,

Speaker 8: I've been seeing stuff on, like, social media and I've been talking to friends too. I guess, what do y'all think about, like, does God support Greek life or, like, you know, what's your opinion on that? Would you repeat the question? I said, so I've been seeing stuff on like on my social media and like I've been seeing stuff like just talking to my friends too. And like I was being like curious too because I've been hearing different answers. So I was wondering like does God support Greek life? Like according to

Yana Conner: bible… Does God support Greek life? Yeah. Oh, okay. So

Lisa Fields: I think that's a question we have in wrestling with every HBCU. I think the first thing we have to do is evaluate how we feel like we come to faith. Right? So I've seen some people online and when they talk about pledging, it it almost voids their salvation. Right? People are talking about it in various ways in which it it… You can't go to heaven if you're Greek. You know, is that what you're talking about? Some of that language or… Yeah. So, entry into heaven is not whether you pledge the divine nine or not. You go to heaven because of the finished work of Christ and you submitting yourself to it. Now can Greek life become something that is misplaced? Idolized? I think yes, but anything can. So I use this example. When we talk about idols, we kind of in our day, kind of talk about it in different ways than maybe the old testament would. So your relationship could be an idol. Your kids could be an idol. If you discover that you have misplaced your kids in your life, you don't denounce your kids. Right? What do you do? You reorient them in priority. I think when it comes to Greek life, depending on your pledging process, some people had some interesting things in their pledging process that they might need to reevaluate. But I know that I'm not Greek but from what I hear, every pledging process is different. And so, I don't feel like God is holding you responsible just because you've joined a group or a club. Mhmm. Now where's your allegiance? Now there's some parts of group Greek life, the party culture that we may not endorse as believers and that that you may have to step away from. But I do think there is a sensationalized thing around spirituality online that we need to be cautious of. So I wanna put my allegiance in God and anything can quote unquote become an idol, but my allegiance should be to God not letters. Mhmm. And if what the letters are requiring me to do goes against the word of God, then I need to evaluate how I'm submitting my life. What is my life submitted to? Is it my life submitted to the divine eye or is my life submitted to God? Anything that makes you go against the commandments of God, obedience, then you need to check. Whether that's relationship, whether that's an organization because our sole allegiance needs to be to Jesus Christ and the way He calls us to live. I don't… From what I've seen, I've seen people saying you know, if you're Greek that's the reason your kids may have some disabilities. Like all of that I think is really harmful language and really deeply problematic and unhelpful. You just need to evaluate where have I placed this in my life. And if you feel like there's a stronghold or demonic entity in your life, you need to go to God about that and ask him, where my life do you… Do I need to repent? That the enemy has not taken possession but has a there's a stronghold in the way I think. My thinking has been altered because a stronghold is how you think about a thing and the ideology that you have. And God, how do you need to… What do I need to repent of and how do you need to reorient my thinking to truth so I can live out the truth. Right? Sometimes we use spiritual language and we don't know what we sing. We're talking about demons, witchcraft, strongholds and we're saying a whole bunch of words and we don't even define them. So we're like, I'm wrestling you know with the demonic, it's the stronghold, it's a struggle and it's like stronghold is a warped way of thinking. So God wants to reorient your thinking to truth. When I bring it down to that common language, it doesn't seem as like I gotta go to a deliverance service and lay on the floor for somebody. It's like, no God is like change your mind and you'll be free from the stronghold. So we need to like think about what we're saying and then don't let people on the TikTok or the internet feed us a whole bunch of spiritual language that we can't even really define and we start making decisions on how to move based on language we don't even understand. Oh my.

Speaker 5: I've seen unspoken probably like six times. So look, you guys if you hadn't seen unspoken you gotta check it out. Unspoken first comes on, right? In the beginning of this documentary that you guys did. This is a gentleman that's being talked to… We can't hear you. Yep. It's a gentleman that's being talked to in this documentary that you that you guys did for unspoken. And one of the things that he's sharing is he done… He's talking to this reporter. He's telling the reporter he didn't want this white Jesus. And me as a man of faith, I know that it's not important for me to focus only on the color of of what Jesus was. Right? But also understanding the ramifications behind why we still see these images of a white Jesus. Right? And we know that we serve the one and only true God. But at the same time, we see other religions like we talked about reasons why people want to to go off to Islam or Buddhism or whatever it may be. Like, just take for instance Buddhism. Right? You look at some of these other religions that have images of what Buddha looked like, and it's somewhat of an accurate depiction of what Buddha would look like, Confucius, and these other people. Why is it that we're still in a place where… And knowing the the reason why this white image was created. And I'm not saying that he was as brown as me either. Right? But what… The ramp… Ramifications behind this this white Jesus that we continue to to see through through through all images that we come across even within the church. Right? So we take for as example, my son was at the church that we attend and it's a very diverse church right here in Durham, North Carolina. And the images when he was a little bit younger that he would have when they would go to the the the children's ministry where all the pictures of a of a of a white Jesus. Why is it that we can't get that part right and seeing that there's obviously, to me, an element of importance of changing that so that we can, I guess change some aspects of how also still why people say why does Christianity make sense when we're still seeing these depictions and knowing why these depictions were created in the first place of this white Jesus?

Lisa Fields: Yeah. I think there's in my chapter in my book, When Faith Disappoints, I start my chapter off talking about what you're talking about right now, iconography. In the in the personhood because there was a… I used to do mentoring at this program called EVAC in Jacksonville for troubled youth. And I remember one of the youth got a tennis scholarship to FAMU and he was struggling with his faith at FAMU and he remembered that I used to come to their class when he was in high school and he he wanted to have a conversation with me about where he was in faith. And he said to me, Lisa, help me understand this. I'm I'm wrestling with my faith. I've been Christian my whole life. I I don't know if I wanna be Christian anymore because every time I look at bible characters, they're all white. Jesus is depicted as white. Adam and Eve is depicted as white. And he said something that I'll never forget. He said, if Adam and Eve were white does that mean my skin color is the product of the fall? That I'm only black because sin entered the world. That's what iconography had warped his thinking and his identity. That he thought his skin color was only because of sin. So to your point, it is a major problem. When people don't see themselves reflected in the iconography, it could be problematic. It's… One scholar said, it's hard to find actually white people in the bible if we did iconography correctly. Right? It was people of color mostly. Not… It doesn't mean it's all African, but it's the diversity of color throughout scripture is not… We've whitewashed it. And and the history of whitewashing is for the those who are in the majority culture to lower power. Right? To be seen as more pure. And so it is for some people that create the curriculums, create the resources, Christian resources, the the evangelical Christian complex that have these mass distribution channels Mhmm. That have easy access to churches. Most of the people that are curating, some of them… I mean, I think there's people that are there are some people that are doing it on purpose and I think some people are just doing it because they don't understand the impacts. Us as black people, we have to know how to live with every race. White people can live and not interact with us at all. Right? And on a deep level. But we, because we are minorities, we have to work with people and so we have to understand what people are navigating through. If you're detached from a black community and you're detached from a conversation like I had with a student, you don't even… You're not even thinking that this is harmful in a way. And so this is why we need to advocate, this is why we need resources like Jude three, this is why we create resources like Unspoken to tell the story to make sure the people that have been harmed by bad narratives get truth so they can understand that the truth of scripture is not exclusively for a majority context but it's for all people. Yeah. And I would just say if there are any like creatives

Yana Conner: in the room where you're an illustrator or a graphic designer, what have you, like, you get to use your gifts to to address this problem. You get… If you're a storyteller, if you are a writer, like, you get to use your gifts to address this problem so that in a kid's ministry space, there is curriculum, there are children's books that tell the true story, and where the identities of the people represented there are more in line with what is true. And so, I think the… Like, there is a gap there but we get to be the people who fill that gap. We cannot expect other people to fill that gap. We need to step in that gap and that's why I'm so appreciative to my sister Lisa and what she does with Jude three because she's stepping in that gap so that we can have a right understanding, of who we are in Christ and a right understanding of, the true identity of Jesus. Yeah. I I always go back to,

Damon Richardson: that episode on Good Times when, JJ painted the, the the picture of Ned Duino and made him look like Jesus and, and, Florida, she just didn't like that. And was… She was like, you know, we gotta get the the real picture of Jesus up there. And it's it's interesting because the creator of Good Times, Norman Lear, was a was a Jew. And he's got this family in the in in the ghetto in Chicago wrestling with this I… This identity issue and the notion of a black Jesus. And I like what he's posing there. I like the issue. Is is why can't Jesus be seen as as black? What's the problem with that? Right? What… Like like, why does that stir the wrong emotions in people just at that very notion? And that's what he was really after is, like, even Florida wasn't comfortable. She was more comfortable with a white Jesus. And and Norman Lear is addressing this notion that could it be that white Jesus is really just a symbol of the superiority and this supposed authority, this perceived greater greaterness of whites than than blacks. Right? And and he's he's he's he's posing that question because this is really what's lying at the the the the base of people's discomfort in the context of this country. It's not that Jesus can't be black. It's that why any notion of Jesus being white is rejected is because white Jesus was weaponized as a way to push the narrative of white superiority, black inferiority, so forth and so on. I find it interesting though that the earliest iconography that we have of an image of Jesus is actually from the second century in an area of Syria or Persia, which goes a little further east of Israel in a place called Dura Europas. It is an image that we have till this day where a Christian community painted a picture of Jesus based on John 10 called the good shepherd. And that image of Jesus is very, very brown like a lot of us in here. And that is actually the earliest depiction of Jesus in in in history. And and I'm not saying it's historically accurate, but I would say that it is significantly more historically accurate than any image of… I like the way Jerome Gay puts it, you know, Pantene v Jesus, you know, with blonde hair, you know, you know. And… But but we know that that's not historically accurate and then we definitely get how they tried to weaponize it. And that's why history is always… The right history is always a powerful powerful corrective to false narratives.

Speaker 8: I wanna ask is that, why do we see a lot of specifically black churches kinda not really, like, in their sermons, in their teaching, really talk about liberation anymore or talk about progressiveness anymore because I do see that there are churches that do it. Like, I grew up in a church that does it, but I see that now that there are a lot of black churches who don't really teach the same way that they were taught in the civil rights movement with the progressiveness. So why is that?

Damon Richardson: I I I think I kinda heard the the first part. Why why aren't more black churches preaching about liberation? Is that the gist of?

Lisa Fields: I think… I

Yana Conner: appreciate your question and I wanna be careful to not railroad it because I think that someone could say that black churches are still doing that kind of work. They just aren't the churches that are going viral on the Internet. And so and so so what we… What we experience on the Internet is like a handful of churches. Right? A handful of black churches. But what is actually happening down the street at St. James is different. Right? And if you go in that church, you will likely… Or to Mount Calvary or to Mount Zion, like, will hear them talk about liberation. You will hear them talk about and address the issues that are happening right now. But you don't probably see… We don't see it as much if our sampling is from what is happening on social media and the clips there. And the reason why is I think that's… Some of that's strategic, you know? And so, if a church's goal is to grow, is to go viral in those sort of sort of senses, then then they shy away from those topics. Or if they do talk about those topics on Sunday mornings, those are the clips that they show, that you can't even find it on YouTube, right? Because because there's there's this there's this awareness that, hey, if we talk about these things, like, we can be cancelled. If we talk about these things, people can perceive us incorrectly. And so I think there's a lot of fear around that. And so I have to sometimes be careful in not allowing what's happening on social media to influence how I think about the black church in general. And and and I will say I have the privilege of going to several black churches and having a different kind of experience and knowing that, no, like, there are black churches that are doing the work, there are black churches that are serving their community, there are black churches that had… That did address the Nolan's… Nolan Wells case on Sunday morning. I was at one in New York and they were… They addressed it right then and there. But you don't know anything about that It's a small church they meet in an elementary school. It's a 100 members. And and they're just being faithful to the task. And a part of their mission is to, to do justice and to love mercy, for the city of Harlem. And so there are a lot of churches that are still focused on that work, but those aren't the churches that we know about because they don't have the budget for a big production, they don't have the budget to to sort of, like, do video and all those kinds of things. And so I just… So I don't wanna railroad your question because it's a real question but I wonder what the sampling of that question, where that comes from. We have to be careful to not allow those mega churches that are… You know, that are publicized online to be the lens through which we interpret and understand, and even perceive what is the work that black churches,

Damon Richardson: are doing. That's so good. As

Lisa Fields: you were… I think that's great, Yana. As you were talking and, as I was thinking about your question, I was thinking when MLK was alive. They would say that most black churches weren't a supporter of MLK during his time of life. And when we reflect on that, some can be very critical. Even in Chicago there was a black pastor who didn't want MLK in his pulpit. Right? And I think when I used to think about that, I used to be very critical of that until I thought about the fact that people were rejecting his message because they were scared. Right? It wasn't that they didn't want equality. They had seen what standing up did to their neighbors and their friends. It's a different it's a different fear when you watch a family member get lynched. A friend get lynched. And so you're like, I don't wanna stir up trouble because that could be my child. Mhmm. That could be my mom, my dad. And so when we look back on maybe black churches that didn't support King, I don't… I wanna I wanna say why didn't you? But I also wanna think about the position they were in. That helps me have a measure of grace. If you watch the family member get killed, you're like, man don't come in here stirring up. We just got the clan out of our city. You know, we just got the clan to stop bothering us. And so some people, their resistance came historically from their fear of death and their fear of retaliation. And so they didn't have the courage in that way to maybe persevere. They just wanted to survive. One of the things… One one example that made this clear to me was I was watching Harriet Tubman. Have you ever seen the Harriet Tubman movie? Harriet goes, she's going for freedom, she comes back to get her sister. And her sister's like, I don't wanna go with you. And she was like, and they're arguing and she was like, everybody can't be you. Like, don't wanna put my babies and carry my babies to try to go to freedom. That that seems too dangerous to me. I just wanna stay here. I I I wanna stay here not because I wanna be a slave but the risk for her was too grave, particularly considering her children. And so when we think about like critiquing history, critiquing black churches maybe not siding with King, it wasn't necessarily always internalized white supremacy. It was them trying to survive hostile conditions and everybody handled that hostility differently. And I think we have to have that nuance looking at history. Now today, I think that churches, when it when it comes to… When we're talking about progressivism and liberation, we have to define what we're saying. Like, what do you mean by progressive? What do you mean by liberation? Because in some spaces that means… That can mean different things and that maybe go against the church's belief in orthodoxy. So liberation and progressivism can have a maybe a different view of the reliability of the bible. True. And that means this church is like, we affirm justice but we believe the Bible is the authority and the last word. Some people will say, the Bible contains the word of God and more conservative say, the Bible is the word of God. Those are two different frameworks. And one that says it contains can be viewed as more progressive and so it's like why do you aren't progressive and this church is like, yo, we ain't giving up that this is the word of God. You saying it contains, that means just it's it's in there but it's not that that I can't trust it. And so I think when we're talking about progressive liberation, there's a there's a spectrum that we need to define when we're critiquing

Speaker 9: how churches may address those things. That's good. That's good. And events like this generally make me happy, like having these conversations. I do see a lot of times, not this one in general, it becomes a Christian affirming event and not necessarily reaching the hearts of those who don't already who don't already believe. So, my question is, because I want people who don't subscribe to our belief system, because they're out there. We, a 110% believe that Jesus is the way, the truth, the life. Somebody else believes that Adam… Y'all somebody help. Allah is the way that… Whatever. Right? So, for someone listening tonight who isn't a Christian, how do we bridge the gap between what makes sense to us and the belief system they subscribe to?

Damon Richardson: Yeah. I I would say that, I mean, let's just start with logical premise, right? It's not logical to land with the idea that all religions can lead to God, right? Like, or all religions are equally true. That's just can't be logically true. Right? That that's like, if if if I were to say, this guy walked this way, that guy walked that way and they're gonna end up in the same place. Like, we would look at that and be like, he's walking in a totally different direction than this one. They're not gonna end up in the in the same place walking in the opposite direction. Right? So, so we we we've gotta we've gotta logically start with that the law of the excluded middle. Right? That that if something's yes, it can't be no. Something's no, it can't be yes. Now, two things are possible though, that two things can both be wrong. Right? Or, one thing is wrong and the other is right, but they both can't be right and be disagreeable. Right? So, so we know for a fact that all religions can't lead to God or can't be right. They they can only be one right and everything else is wrong. So, I would look at what Jesus had said about it. Jesus said, I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the father except he comes through me. That's a very exclusive claim. Right? Now, here's the interesting thing because Muslims have asked me the questions, you know, well, Christianity is making this claim that Jesus is the only way, but that excludes Islam. And yet, Islam claims that it believes that Jesus is a prophet and he's a prophet of Allah and I'm like, yeah, but that that's a real big problem for you because if you say that Jesus is a prophet of Allah, my question to you is does Allah have any lying prophets? Well, no. Right? So, if Jesus is a prophet of Allah and Jesus said, I am the way, not Muhammad, but I am the way, the truth and the life, then if Jesus is not a lying prophet, then why don't you accept him on for the claim that he literally made about himself. Right? So, Jesus is saying, I'm not just coming to show you the way, he's saying that I am the way. Here's another interesting thing. When somebody makes the claim that all religions lead to God, they are also making an… A claim of exclusivity as well because what they are claiming from an exclusivity standpoint is is that all religions lead to God, but what they're excluding are people who don't have religion. People who don't believe in God. So, right? So, so the… So so, if exclusivity is their problem, well, they don't really have a big problem with it because they are also excluding people who are non religious. And so, the the issue of exclusivity is really what people are attempting to wrestle with, but Jesus has already defined what that looks like. And so, I would say that when I think about the cross and I think about it as a horrific act of justice where Isaiah 53 describes it, I would say that if God knew that there were all these other ways to to get to him, that he really did a whole lot of unnecessary stuff in taking out his wrath, sending his son, you know, as our representative and then taking out his wrath on him. Like, God really went out of his way unnecessarily to do all of that if at the end of the day, there are all these other paths that lead to him. And, I think the person and work of Christ and the judgment of God the father on the son significantly excludes any other possibility that there is another right way other than his son, the lord Jesus Christ. And I just think that… I know it's offensive to a lot of people, but at the end of the day, everybody is living in exclusivity around the things that they like and the things that are convenient for them. And we just have to be honest about what the truth is. But logic will not allow us to include everything and everybody in that conversation.

Lisa Fields: Yeah. I think that's that's super helpful. I would add there's the the humility of belief and what I mean by that is that if you've… I've been… I'm born and raised in church. So things make sense to me because I've just been in church my whole life. Right? So when we hear Jesus died on the cross and rose on the third day, when we hear he was born of a virgin, it makes sense to us because we've been in it so long. It was was was Will Smith, he was on the interview, he said, so you're saying that Scientology is crazy but you want me to believe that a virgin birthed a man. That don't sound crazy to you? Like, and so we sometimes forget that what we're telling people to believe sounds like make believe. And so we have to put ourselves… We have to kind of… When we're doing evangelism to people who don't believe because it's so it's such a core belief for us. We have to kind of pull ourselves out of that. To say if I didn't if I didn't believe this, would this sound hard to believe? You know, like if if your girlfriend came up to you and be like, yeah I'm pregnant but it, you know, I didn't cheat on you. Ain't nobody believing that. You know what I'm saying? Ain't nobody believing that. And so we have to think about how much what we're claiming may sound absurd to those who didn't grow up in our faith. And so when we think about that we'll approach it with humility.

Yana Conner: Yeah.

Lisa Fields: Because sometimes our just dogmatic approach comes because we've been immersed in it so long. And not to say we ought not to be really clear and convicted about truth, But when we have that… When we understand that this kinda sounds weird, then we'll approach it with a level of humility in our posture and communicating and be like, bro, I know I'm asking you to believe something wild. Right. Like I'm asking you to believe that a man died on the cross and got up on the third day and the stone was moved. Like angels came, I'm asking you to believe something that sounds like a fictional story. But it is real and transformative. And so when when you're when you're wrestling with people like that and and helping people wrestle through, not wrestle with them because you don't wanna like fight them. But helping people wrestle through that, I find that the most helpful witness is the transformation in your life. That this actually… This story sounds crazy, but this story actually changed my life. Right? This this story helps me love you. And when they see you living counter culturally, living distinctly, first Peter three fifteen, the core apologetics verse says we ought to give an answer to those who ask. And it says those who ask but it gives a way that people live that's so distinct in first Peter three. That you live such a way that is you treat your enemies right, you just do relationships so well that people say how do you live like that? Right. That your witness becomes the the inquiry point to the transformation in others. Yeah. And so, when you have people that are doubting because the belief seems crazy, let your life be the witness.

Jeremiah: Mhmm.

Lisa Fields: That you you do justice and love mercy. That you love people, that you obey God in every area of your life. That your witness will become attractive to those who even think the belief itself is strange. Yeah. Yeah.

Yana Conner: Yeah. I I don't think I have anything to add. I think I think in order to do what Lisa has just shared is that you have to be in relationships with people, and and you kinda have to play the long game, you know. And so I I grew up in a context and was… When I was a college student, I was part of a college ministry, and we would go out and we'd do evangelism on campus, and we expected somebody to make a decision in that moment. But I… When I thought about it later, was like, man, it took a lot of conversations for me Right. To to put my my faith and my trust in Jesus Christ. And so, how do we play the long game with people? How do we, you know, do the work of of opening our Bibles with them? I've I've often asked somebody like, hey, have you ever after they said that they don't believe in Jesus, I'll say, like, hey, have you ever read the Bible before? No. Would you would you wanna wanna do that together? You know? And and and sometimes they say, And so then we start reading the Bible together. We don't get far, But we start reading the Bible and it it starts to have, like, really substantive conversations about the scriptures. And so make space for relationships so that they can see your life. But then also don't make all of your conversations with them just about Jesus. Like like, get to know them, be their friend, hang out, you know, show up when they need you, when they don't need you. Be a friend to them,

Damon Richardson: as well as an evangelist and a witness to them. Could I could I could I add real quick just one second to this part as well. Sometimes also inviting people to, ask questions and then even share their their skepticism and and then kind of listen for the concern underneath the question. I like to invite people to consider the reasonableness of of Christianity. You know, one quick story that I always tell. Going to the barber shop, you always hear all kinds of conversations going on either about politics, religion. The bible's like one of the big ones that always comes up. And, I remember hearing two barbers talking about what Lisa was just mentioning about like, the virgin birth, like, how wildly unbelievable that was. And and and I I was sitting there thinking from that perspective. I was like, that does sound kinda wild though, you know. And… But in in my approach, once I was, hey, could I say something? I started thinking about reasonableness. Like, what is the reasonableness of of of this question here? So, I asked him, I said, do you believe that one God created the heavens and the earth? He was like, yeah yeah yeah. I said, well, do you believe that that God is also responsible for the creative order, like creating people, creating animals, plant life, birds, all that. He was like, yeah, yeah. Believe that. I was like, well, that's good. I mean, that's a good starting point because I believe that too. And, I said, you got a smartphone? He was like, yeah. I said, Google this word, p a r t h e n e g e n e s I s. It's parthenogenesis is the word. So, he started googling it and stuff and the other. I said, just pick any one of the entries and then just tell me what it says. Well, parthenogenesis says that there are certain plants, there are certain animals like reptiles, for instance, dolphins, some snakes, Komodo dragons. There's a number of different kinds of species that have been scientifically observed to have reproduced and birthed offspring without the contribution of a male sperm. And, that… The word in the Greek for virgin birth is parthenos in the Greek. That's the word that Matthew used to describe Mary giving birth to Jesus. And so, here it is all over creation, things giving birth, like, it's not common, but it does happen. And, so he read that and so I said, well, why don't you just think about the reasonableness of what you already agreed to? You said that God made plants and animals and this, that and the other. So, if he can in fact create some of those things that he made to do that, how is it unreasonable for him to bring his son into the world in a special way like a virgin birth? And, he was like, you know what? That kinda makes some sense. Right? Now, he didn't become a believer, but I just invited him into considering the reasonableness of the claims that the bible makes. Yeah. So…